Deep Knowledge

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
I feel like every skill based "thing" has something that just can't be taught. The person needs to discover it on their own. Pool is no different... there is a point in pool where things just "click", but you need to make the "click" happen... the lifetime Skill Level 3 League Player will never experience that as pool is an excuse to go hang out with friends/drink and have some friendly competition...

The players that want to get better, want their skill level to go up, want to snap off tournaments, want to beat people in action... they are the ones that the "click" happens for... they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
a time comes when we graduate from playing the game, to the game playing through us

I feel like every skill based "thing" has something that just can't be taught. The person needs to discover it on their own. Pool is no different... there is a point in pool where things just "click", but you need to make the "click" happen... the lifetime Skill Level 3 League Player will never experience that as pool is an excuse to go hang out with friends/drink and have some friendly competition...

The players that want to get better, want their skill level to go up, want to snap off tournaments, want to beat people in action... they are the ones that the "click" happens for... they are the ones that will not only play pool, but be actual pool players.

Good points, I of S - it is a "click" that's a great way to describe it!

The game of pool is geometrically perfect, this means we don't have to search for the perfection because it's already there.

To play at the highest level possible we are willing to "plug in" and deeply connect to the game both mentally and physically.

To achieve this we are willing to perform thousands of scientific experiments on (and off) the table until something "Clicks"....the human mind has an uncanny ability to understand the deepest levels of physics and geometry, you'll see examples of this in architecture like the pyramids and in every challenging sport or game.

We should seek to discover ourselves through the game, express ourselves in such a way a time comes when we graduate from us playing the game, to the game playing through us. However, since the human body isn't designed to play pocket billiards there are techniques that must be learned, and they are usually opposite of "common opinion".


The Game is the Teacher
 

j2pac

Marital Slow Learner.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Good points, I of S - it is a "click" that's a great way to describe it!

The game of pool is geometrically perfect, this means we don't have to search for the perfection because it's already there.

To play at the highest level possible we are willing to "plug in" and deeply connect to the game both mentally and physically.

To achieve this we are willing to perform thousands of scientific experiments on (and off) the table until something "Clicks"....the human mind has an uncanny ability to understand the deepest levels of physics and geometry, you'll see examples of this in architecture like the pyramids and in every challenging sport or game.

We should seek to discover ourselves through the game, express ourselves in such a way a time comes when we graduate from us playing the game, to the game playing through us. However, since the human body isn't designed to play pocket billiards there are techniques that must be learned, and they are usually opposite of "common opinion".


The Game is the Teacher

Amen CJ.
When once asked who his greatest teacher was? Lee Trevino aptly replied, "my golf ball." ;)
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
the after-contact-reaction of the cueball was the giveaway that they were champions

Amen CJ.
When once asked who his greatest teacher was? Lee Trevino aptly replied, "my golf ball." ;)

That's right, the old time road players use to tell me "whitey never lies".

Omaha John used to tell me "you have to make the cueball "float" to the next position and others would say "he has it on a string". It took me awhile to understand what they meant, but I kept watching the players and the after-contact-reaction of the cueball was the giveaway that they were at that advanced level.

I ask Efren what he thought made him a winning player and he said "no spin"....most players would think he meant he didn't spin the cue ball, but that wasn't true, he meant AFTER contact.....he floated the cueball, and yes, he has it "on a string".

The Game is the Teacher
 

j2pac

Marital Slow Learner.
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's right, the old time road players use to tell me "whitey never lies".

Omaha John used to tell me "you have to make the cueball "float" to the next position and others would say "he has it on a string". It took me awhile to understand what they meant, but I kept watching the players and the after-contact-reaction of the cueball was the giveaway that they were at that advanced level.

I ask Efren what he thought made him a winning player and he said "no spin"....most players would think he meant he didn't spin the cue ball, but that wasn't true, he meant AFTER contact.....he floated the cueball, and yes, he has it "on a string".

The Game is the Teacher

Please don't ever stop writing. It's nice to read the history, stories, and lessons of the game, from folks who actually lived it. :cool: You, and Mr. Jay Helfert always allow me to live vicariously through the two of you...minus the near death experiences. ;) As far as I am concerned, the two of you are invaluable to the sport, and it's many intricacies.
My sincere thanks for your continued contributions.

One last funny Trevino quip, for the road. Lee was asked once, why he never had a swing coach? He said, "I never found one who could beat me." :)
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
I do not know if this is Deep Knowledge, but years ago a good pool player, who is short stop speed. Told me visualize your short before you shoot.

What he meant was figure out where you want the OB to go. In pocket, or safety position.

Where you want the CB to be at end of shot with in an area the size of a Silver Dollar.

Last figure out how to accomplish the two point above, and accomplish that on every shot you take.

Sound easy, is not easy, if it was or is I would be a world class PoolPlayer.
 

wahcheck

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Secrets

I guess many people have wondered (myself included) if there were "secrets" in playing pool that only some top level players knew but would never tell....I believe there are, but maybe nothing so profound as to suddenly make you into a great player. I took a lesson from a pro once, and he showed me a couple of things he learned that would never be found in a book of pool lessons, and like someone already said, it had to have come from human imagination, which I think is pretty much limitless. It reminds me of the time long ago when most pros or top players had the attitude that they would never teach you something for free that cost them to learn.

And since there are Lee Trevino stories being told, my favorite one is:

Once, someone was passing by Trevino's house where he was out mowing his lawn, and making the wrong assumption that he was a gardener doing it for the owner of the house, asked what he was getting paid to do the mowing; Trevino answered, "The lady of the house lets me sleep with her."
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems

Enjoy,
Dave
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems

Enjoy,
Dave


Dr. Dave's info is great, worth checking out, and it will not cost you a thing but a little time.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Across the board, the "deepest knowledge" in pocket billiards is almost backwards

I do not know if this is Deep Knowledge, but [years ago a good pool player, who is short stop speed. Told me visualize your short before you shoot.

What he meant was figure out where you want the OB to go. In pocket, or safety position.

Where you want the CB to be at end of shot with in an area the size of a Silver Dollar.

Last figure out how to accomplish the two point above, and accomplish that on every shot you take.

Sound easy, is not easy, if it was or is I would be a world class PoolPlayer.

Steve Mizerak told me he never visualized a shot and he wrote that in one of his books.

I can agree that I don't visualize shots, and my point of position is created by a Zone, so that I can always maximize margin of error. To do this there is a technique I call "Feel the Shot with your Eyes" - this may seem counter intuitive, because you are not taking into account this is a Subconscious technique, not a conscious one.

The things that champions players do are MUCH different than the shortstops of the world, and that's why there is such a massive difference in their games, especially under pressure.

I worked with Hank Haney who was Tiger Woods coach for several years. He said the same thing when we started, he advised me to forget everything I thought I knew about the golf swing so that I could make room for what he was going to teach me.

Across the board, the "deepest knowledge" in pocket billiards is almost backwards from what you'll see written and demonstrated by players that aren't competitive in professional tournaments (or never have been).

I teach most of the time, but occasionally I play pro tournaments and/or gamble for high stakes. This Saturday I have a Money Match* that will probably end up being for enough to positively influence my life, so I will be switching modes, it's challenging to do both at a world class level at exactly the same time.

*the match is in Oklahoma City at BILLS if you're interested - it will be streamed and the UnderCard match for the Dennis Orcollo vs SKY Woodward match....Action there will be amazing so if you're within range come join us for an unforgettable experience!

The Game is the Teacher
 

j2pac

Marital Slow Learner.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Steve Mizerak told me he never visualized a shot and he wrote that in one of his books.

I can agree that I don't visualize shots, and my point of position is created by a Zone, so that I can always maximize margin of error. To do this there is a technique I call "Feel the Shot with your Eyes" - this may seem counter intuitive, because you are not taking into account this is a Subconscious technique, not a conscious one.

The things that champions players do are MUCH different than the shortstops of the world, and that's why there is such a massive difference in their games, especially under pressure.

I worked with Hank Haney who was Tiger Woods coach for several years. He said the same thing when we started, he advised me to forget everything I thought I knew about the golf swing so that I could make room for what he was going to teach me.

Across the board, the "deepest knowledge" in pocket billiards is almost backwards from what you'll see written and demonstrated by players that aren't competitive in professional tournaments (or never have been).

I teach most of the time, but occasionally I play pro tournaments and/or gamble for high stakes. This Saturday I have a Money Match* that will probably end up being for enough to positively influence my life, so I will be switching modes, it's challenging to do both at a world class level at exactly the same time.

*the match is in Oklahoma City at BILLS if you're interested - it will be streamed and the UnderCard match for the Dennis Orcollo vs SKY Woodward match....Action there will be amazing so if you're within range come join us for an unforgettable experience!

The Game is the Teacher

Good fortunes to you in your upcoming match CJ.
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
Steve Mizerak told me he never visualized a shot and he wrote that in one of his books.

I do it rarely. Let the shot play out in my head and try to execute that on the table.

I don't do it often because the result is always so much different then what was in my head. LOL

See my disclaimer...
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
when I shift from playing the game to the game playing through me

I do it rarely. Let the shot play out in my head and try to execute that on the table.

I don't do it often because the result is always so much different then what was in my head. LOL

See my disclaimer...

I've tried it too, with about the same success you had.

Come to find out when we try to visualize the shot and do it, the pressure rises and we have less chance to "allow it to happen".

You have to be able to see the centers of the balls and edges, however, pocket billiards is a feel and touch game......this comes from the subconscious part of the mind that is many times more powerful than the conscious part.

People in all sports talk about "getting in the zone," and when this happens we aren't thinking more, we are thinking less. I describe it as when I shift from playing the game to the game playing through me.......this is the ultimate state of mind, when you will always play your best!
 

bb9ball

Registered
Dr. Dave's info is great, worth checking out, and it will not cost you a thing but a little time.


Yes it is free, but he does take donations. I'm not saying you have to. But if it is of value to you and you can afford to, maybe give a little. For me, I consider it a "thank you" to him. Who on here wouldn't like to buy him a drink or maybe even a lunch?
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems
Dr. Dave's info is great, worth checking out, and it will not cost you a thing but a little time.
Yes it is free, but he does take donations. I'm not saying you have to. But if it is of value to you and you can afford to, maybe give a little. For me, I consider it a "thank you" to him. Who on here wouldn't like to buy him a drink or maybe even a lunch?
I appreciate both the sentiment and donation. And a lunch or drink would be nice some day (with anybody on AZB).

Best regards,
Dave
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
the robot would set the same to each shot and stroke the cue precisely from CENTER

Yes, is the short answer. Let me explain.

I live in San Antonio and a friend of mine told me that he once took a lesson with CJ Wiley up near Dallas a few years back.

He said CJ really improved his game and was a nice guy. I called CJ and to my surprise, he was quite receptive to my invitation. I arranged 5 people to take a lesson from him and that made it feasible for him to travel to San Antonio.

I had no idea the journey I was about to take. I had no idea that my pool game was about to fork in the road. One path leading to "meh", and the other path leading to new "possibilities". I met up with CJ at the Vault Billiards.

He was a cool cat and very easy going. We started with the lesson and mostly standard stuff for a guy like me who already plays above average. He helped me with my body position and stroke. But then, things got intriguing.

He showed me some advanced things. Now, when I say advanced, I mean like, "Wow, I did not know that was even possible"! I asked him to hit the shot again, because I could not believe what I was seeing.

THIS, is sometimes a key moment, and I hope you get to see that type of moment one day. See, just seeing that it was possible to make that type of shot is significant. Previously, my mind would not even fathom to try because it seemed impossible, so of course, I always looked for different routes.

Sometimes those routes led me to "OK, not bad", and sometimes they let me to "Darn, that sucks". But, with what CJ showed me, it opened a new door to that part of my game. It took about an hour of practice, before I even hit my first replication of his shot. Then, slowly, I was able to produce it more and more.

I would say about 5 hours overall, spread out over a week, I was able to finally replicate the shot consistently. Now, I use it whenever I need it.


Words are hard to demonstrate and a video would be better, but the shot was a cut shot with a lot of inside where the cue ball holds a very short distance line and the object ball travels farther that the line the cue ball holds despite being a thin cut.

As I re-read that, it doesn't capture what the shot is. But, here is the important thing that happened to me that day. I learned that things are possible, even if at first they appear impossible. It has opened up my game to a much higher level.

A "deep knowledge" if you will. I have learned more in the last year that I did in the first 10 years. I hope this helps you. Pool is a beautiful sport. We need more people playing, more people learning, and more people sharing knowledge. Take care... Wolf.


Wow, that's an amazing story, I'm glad to have the opportunity to share my knowledge and experiences with you and your friends. I remember those advanced TOI shots where I was cutting the balls backwards and killing the cueball severely.....that is definitely the advanced chapter, it looks like an optical illusion because of how I'm Pinning the tip.

People don't realize how many levels there are in pocket billiards, it's like climbing a mountain you don't realize how much your perception changes the higher you climb. I know you were a bit skeptical when I said we were going to rebuild your game from the ground up. But if you don't get that correct you can't do what I was doing, especially that severely every time.

The foundation is vitally important and it's not taught in the United States like it is in other countries, I learned it in Canada from a man that taught Cliff who had 27 147's playing snooker. If anyone knows about snooker that's an amazing record and proves how well his fundamentals had to be.

Once your foundation is grooved and understood it makes your body, which isn't desired to play pool into a "Pool Playing Machine" - I'm sure I made the reference a few times about if a scientist was going to actually build a pool playing robot/android they would have as few moving parts as possible.

Then the robot would set the same to each shot and stroke the cue precisely out of the center of it's vision (I feel like I shoot my shots out of the center of my chest, so my head is as square as possible), this not only gives the best perception of the shots, it also allows the player to connect to the shot as well as possible. This position also allows me to snap mu wrist on a regular shot like a masse artist would but with a near level cue.

When you're looking at each shot as square as you would shoot a pistol, and the connection is established you will actually feel the cueball contact the object ball and the object ball contact the pocket. It's essential to watch the object ball hit the pocket so that if you're off to oe side or the other you can make a slight adjustment on the very next shot.

Sounds like you practiced this technique and are enjoying the benefits. From my experience I can teach someone how to do this in 3 hours, and it takes 2-3 weeks to make the new way as natural as before, and now your game should improve 1-3 balls.

Let me know if you have any questions and hopefully I'll get down there again one of these days. I'm in Dallas now, but heading the opposite direction to Oklahoma City tomorrow, there's a ton of action at BILL's Bar and Billiards so I'm excited to get a chance to apply what I'm teaching, I travel a lot but rarely get anyone to gamble.

Play Well, The Game is the Teacher
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's right, the old time road players use to tell me "whitey never lies".

Omaha John used to tell me "you have to make the cueball "float" to the next position and others would say "he has it on a string". It took me awhile to understand what they meant, but I kept watching the players and the after-contact-reaction of the cueball was the giveaway that they were at that advanced level.

I ask Efren what he thought made him a winning player and he said "no spin"....most players would think he meant he didn't spin the cue ball, but that wasn't true, he meant AFTER contact.....he floated the cueball, and yes, he has it "on a string".

The Game is the Teacher

Watching Efren over the years it seems more like 'head no spin'

:)
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
Pool has also seen it's share of snake oil salesman with secrets for sale. While some instructors freely share knowledge and it's often excellent, others sell "secrets" that fall into the "buyer beware" category, especially since it may mess up your game.

The secret in pool instruction is to assess where a particular player is at, where they may be able to improve based on their ability, and to have the people skills to clearly and tactfully convey that.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems

Enjoy,
Dave


Sorry, but that's some pretty basic, 101 stuff.

Lou Figueroa
 
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