Deep Knowledge

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool has also seen it's share of snake oil salesman with secrets for sale. While some instructors freely share knowledge and it's often excellent, others sell "secrets" that fall into the "buyer beware" category, especially since it may mess up your game.

The secret in pool instruction is to assess where a particular player is at, where they may be able to improve based on their ability, and to have the people skills to clearly and tactfully convey that.


The sentiment you express is true.

Regrettably, there are folks in pool always willing to sell you "secrets." Caveat emptor should be the rule of the day.

Lou Figueroa
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For those interested, the link below provides a list of 100 categorized "secrets" (with supporting resources) that most top players either "know" or have a "feel" for. Depending on your level of pool knowledge, experience, and ability, some of this stuff might be considered "deep knowledge:"

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems
Sorry, but that's some pretty basic, 101 stuff.
Agreed. Most of the knowledge on the list is very basic stuff any good pool player should know. However, there are quite a few gems on the list that even some (maybe even many) top players don't know. Here are some examples:

- how to accurately predict draw direction with the 3-times-the-angle (trisect) system (36).
- how to accurately judge the exact amount of outside spin required for a gearing shot with no throw (41).
- how to accurately judge CB direction with frozen CB and frozen OB shots (79).
- how small-gap combination throw works relative to the magical 3/8" gap size (80).
- how to detect pattern racking and ball-gap cheating, and how to read a rack (90).

I know you already know everything, but not everybody is as smart as you. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
 

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To me, it is not unreasonable that Ray Martin's knowledge of the stack would surprise you. Yes, you are an accomplished straight pool player, but Ray Martin is a champion. He succeeded in competition with the elite. It makes sense, to me, that he would have an understanding that even very good players would not.

I read a book that really changed the way I view skill acquisition. The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle has insights into how people develop elite skill sets across time, geography, and disciplines. To me, his observations were unique in that I don't believe those connections were really made before (or at least not in a way that was made so widely known) and I found them to be somewhat counterintuitive. He is convincing in his opinion that elite skill is made and it does not come some primordial unknown place.

All of that is to say, I think it is possible for players to develop skill and understanding that others miss, either on purpose or by accident, and maybe they would have an inability communicating how they got this skill and understanding, but in my view, it is a skill that is developled, made, and formed and open to others who might intentionally or unintentially follow a similar path.

kollegedave




I think I did intend to imply secrecy using the term "deep knowledge."

Meaning, knowledge that the vast majority of players do not possess regardless of how long they've played and how many instructional books, DVDs, and YouTubes they've watched. Take Wille Mosconi as an example. Yes, he was a prodigy, a savant. But in learning the game so early in his development did he see and learn connections, patterns, and techniques that others miss? Was it just that he "did things better" that allowed him to run so many balls and win so many championships?

Or did he know stuff?

I've been fortunate in that I've had the opportunity to take lessons from Steve "The Cookie Monster" Cook, Dallas West, and Ray Martin. And one of the things I like to do when I'm with guys like that is to ask them about various 14.1 break shots. They often surprise me.

I mean, though I'm no champion, I've been playing the game for decades and have run 100 a few times. Yet they surprise me with what I would call deep knowledge about going into the stack, as well as other things. During one lesson I asked RM how he'd shoot a particular break shot and he said something like, "Follow with some inside." So then I set up another shot, nominally different, and ask the same question. And he says, "Follow." And I'm like, "Really?" And Ray says, "Go ahead and shoot it." And I do -- with just follow -- and the balls open up and the CB is near the center of the table. Who knew -- I certainly didn't.

When guys say there's no such thing as deep knowledge it kinda makes me think they believe they know the best way to shoot every shot, or at an even more basic level, what shot to shoot at any given point in a pattern. I don't know about you but unless they're a champion, I don't believe that to be so.

Lou Figueroa
 

Franky4Eyes

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Necessity is the mother of all invention."
One pocket, in particular, seems to have spawned some
of the most creative shots in active game play.
Some people, like in chess, go volumes beyond typical thought and enjoy the benefits of wiser choices not even seen as options by many.

Edit*
The mere suggestion of the existence of deeper knowledge is probably why used Shots, Moves, and Strategies books are hundreds of dollars.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Agreed. Most of the knowledge on the list is very basic stuff any good pool player should know. However, there are quite a few gems on the list that even some (maybe even many) top players don't know. Here are some examples:

- how to accurately predict draw direction with the 3-times-the-angle (trisect) system (36).
- how to accurately judge the exact amount of outside spin required for a gearing shot with no throw (41).
- how to accurately judge CB direction with frozen CB and frozen OB shots (79).
- how small-gap combination throw works relative to the magical 3/8" gap size (80).
- how to detect pattern racking and ball-gap cheating, and how to read a rack (90).

I know you already know everything, but not everybody is as smart as you. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave


Well, I sure didn't know you could be that snarky but like they say: try and learn something every day.

Lou Figueroa
can cross off today
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To me, it is not unreasonable that Ray Martin's knowledge of the stack would surprise you. Yes, you are an accomplished straight pool player, but Ray Martin is a champion. He succeeded in competition with the elite. It makes sense, to me, that he would have an understanding that even very good players would not.

I read a book that really changed the way I view skill acquisition. The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle has insights into how people develop elite skill sets across time, geography, and disciplines. To me, his observations were unique in that I don't believe those connections were really made before (or at least not in a way that was made so widely known) and I found them to be somewhat counterintuitive. He is convincing in his opinion that elite skill is made and it does not come some primordial unknown place.

All of that is to say, I think it is possible for players to develop skill and understanding that others miss, either on purpose or by accident, and maybe they would have an inability communicating how they got this skill and understanding, but in my view, it is a skill that is developled, made, and formed and open to others who might intentionally or unintentially follow a similar path.

kollegedave


Yes, I've read that one.

You might also like "Talent Is Overrated" by Geoff Colvin and "Mozart's Brain and the Fighter Pilot" by Richard Restak.

Lou Figueroa
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
you don't play the game with the center of your tip, you play it with the Edge!"

I learned a lot by playing and practicing with Buddy Hall when we both lived in Tampa Florida back in the mid 80s. He was the best 9-Ball player after the break in my opinion, of course on a given day there are several on that list.

One day we were practicing, I had just got a new tip on my cue so I ask Buddy "how should I shape this tip, like a dime or a nickel?"

Buddy laughed and gave me a sly grin "It don't matter, CJ, you don't play the game with the center of your tip, you play it with the Edge!"

It took me time (and practice) to completely understand what he meant, however, I immediately started thinking in terms of playing with the edge of my tip. This changed the angle of my cue, I had always tried to keep it level, but found out that was not wise!

This is like the difference between hitting something with the center of your fist and hitting it with the knuckles. You will Always see a martial artist breaking boards or bricks using his first two knuckles......there is a very important reason for this and it applies to pool as well.

I appreciate Buddy, he showed me several things that at first didn't seem profound but when I started looking for the Deep Knowledge layered under the surface I discovered why Buddy Hall Was Smarter Than em All (not really, but it rhymes well) :groucho:
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
AZ Chip for a pool video interviewing the great players of today

I'd contribute a few dollars.

Based on the Earl Video, billiard network sounds capable of producing recruitment content based on today's style of marketing.

I'd pay for a collection of interviews with pros just freestyling about common challenges during matches and the mental stuff. Fun promo stuff. Win over some of those stay at home players or home table owners.

With the women as a showcase not an add on.

CJ can host I nominate him from AZ.

CJ you game can you make the approach
 
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evergruven

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
AZ Chip for a pool video interviewing the great players of today

I'd contribute a few dollars.

Based on the Earl Video, billiard network sounds capable of producing recruitment content based on today's style of marketing.

I'd pay for a collection of interviews with pros just freestyling about common challenges during matches and the mental stuff. Fun promo stuff. Win over some of those stay at home players or home table owners.

With the women as a showcase not an add on.

CJ can host I nominate him from AZ.

CJ you game can you make the approach

fun idea..
if select pros "are game," why not?
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
fun idea..
if select pros "are game," why not?

this forum is like dream land, anything is possible here.

some people are a little to focused on following rules and known traditions.

I like talking about growth and welcoming new people. I might get yelled at for talking to you though. so back to radio silence.

thanks EG
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is a level of "Deep Knowledge" that isn't well known by the general public

AZ Chip for a pool video interviewing the great players of today

I'd contribute a few dollars.

Based on the Earl Video, billiard network sounds capable of producing recruitment content based on today's style of marketing.

I'd pay for a collection of interviews with pros just freestyling about common challenges during matches and the mental stuff. Fun promo stuff. Win over some of those stay at home players or home table owners.

With the women as a showcase not an add on.

CJ can host I nominate him from AZ.

CJ you game can you make the approach


Sure, today I'm on my way to Oklahoma City to BILLS Bar and Billiards for some training and action matches (Saturday is the big one that will be streamed before the SKY Woodward vs Dennis Orcullo match), so I'm in the pool mode the next 5 days.

There is a level of "Deep Knowledge" that isn't well known by the general public, not because it's so sophisticated, on the contrary. Most of it is not difficult, but it takes the willingness for players to forget what they've been told and read. The champion players do not play the "conventional way" that's been taught to the main stream.

I have a friend that will be there that's been wanting me to do a podcast and let the champions show people the real "Deep Knowledge" so maybe the stars are aligning to do that - I'd enjoy doing it and I'm sure it would be interesting, educational and entertaining.

I'll talk to SKY and Dennis about getting involved, there are several players that will!

The Game is the Teacher
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
You are a Dream builder.

Thanks for the post.

I am only a dreamer.

Sure, today I'm on my way to Oklahoma City to BILLS Bar and Billiards for some training and action matches (Saturday is the big one that will be streamed before the SKY Woodward vs Dennis Orcullo match), so I'm in the pool mode the next 5 days.

There is a level of "Deep Knowledge" that isn't well known by the general public, not because it's so sophisticated, on the contrary. Most of it is not difficult, but it takes the willingness for players to forget what they've been told and read. The champion players do not play the "conventional way" that's been taught to the main stream.

I have a friend that will be there that's been wanting me to do a podcast and let the champions show people the real "Deep Knowledge" so maybe the stars are aligning to do that - I'd enjoy doing it and I'm sure it would be interesting, educational and entertaining.

I'll talk to SKY and Dennis about getting involved, there are several players that will!

The Game is the Teacher
 

evergruven

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
this forum is like dream land, anything is possible here.

some people are a little to focused on following rules and known traditions.

I like talking about growth and welcoming new people. I might get yelled at for talking to you though. so back to radio silence.

thanks EG

is this thread not about deep knowledge?
would it not be a treat to hear from those bodies and souls
who have professed in, and pontificated about, pool, so much?
we should be so lucky.

"dream on" :cool:
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
is this thread not about deep knowledge?
would it not be a treat to hear from those bodies and souls
who have professed in, and pontificated about, pool, so much?
we should be so lucky.

"dream on" :cool:

i am talking about someone that thinks recreational players should be practicing specific ghost drills and other non-social pool activities during covid isolation .

I think of deep knowledge as the most common mistakes that are easy to fix, but not simple to figure out how to fix, the pro mindset. Not the what should I practice for hours on end because I have pool OCD. Not that there is anything wrong with it.

I've decided long ago that my goals were to enjoy social pool without alcohol during matches more than being a well practiced pool extremist.

Pool is a game, I think its about community. from what is practiced to how it is played, the community is why i started playing pool. not many other options in sports in terms ethnic diversity and social mobility. I always imagine tournaments as meetings of people from all over the world ignoring their local politics to peacefully play pool, even if they are from regions trained to hate each other.

I have requested hearing more about struggles between pros during matches.
What was the pool community like during previous international conflicts?

Was it mainly a US thing? The history on global events during pool interests me greatly. like during 9/11 how did the pool world react? Because this covid this is going down in history books, so it might leave a historical significance.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Another version of deep knowledge

Never doing anything in moderation, I spent more hours in a pool hall than I did working and I worked well over a full time average.

Anyway, somewhere along the line I started thinking in pool. I wanted out of a trap, I wanted to pocket a ball here and stop the cue ball there, I no longer thought about how to make a shot. The solution was just there even when it was some fairly unusual situations that I hadn't seen before. Long before seeing english black ball played which can get pretty three dimensional I was left in a heck of a box on a bar table. It was going to be hard to even hit my ball in the days before jump cues and all I would be doing would be hitting it into the rail and then back out into an absolute crowd of the other player's balls.

Or I could play a truly ridiculous shot even on a bar table. Hop the cue ball into my object ball so it went airborne off the side cushion and I cut it so it headed for the end rail after banking off the side rail. Had to land on the cushion that had a little angle to it because I wanted to run past two of his obstructing balls and drop down onto the playing surface to drop into the corner pocket across from the one the cluster was around but on the same end of the table. Not unusual play on a blackball table but nobody had seen such a thing in my part of the woods! No question it was a legal shot, it was also the one that took the wind out of a few sails that night!

It would have been beyond my ability to reason out that shot on the conscious level. the unconscious solved for cut angle, english,cue elevation, and speed in an instant. I wish I could gain that version of deep knowledge again but even if possible I know I am unwilling to put in the hours needed.

Hu
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, so here's an example of deep knowledge.

I believe it was Jersey Red playing 1pocket. This was long ago and the match is on an old Brunswick. His opponent leaves their game ball hanging in the jaws. There are a couple of balls just over the line, so following the ball in is not a viable option.

After a few moments of study, Red jacks up and jumps the CB (full cue :) over the game ball and off the back of the leather pocket liner, knocking it out of the jaws and killing the CB dead, leaving it exactly where the game ball had been.

Lou Figueroa
 

philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, so here's an example of deep knowledge.

I believe it was Jersey Red playing 1pocket. This was long ago and the match is on an old Brunswick. His opponent leaves their game ball hanging in the jaws. There are a couple of balls just over the line, so following the ball in is not a viable option.

After a few moments of study, Red jacks up and jumps the CB (full cue :) over the game ball and off the back of the leather pocket liner, knocking it out of the jaws and killing the CB dead, leaving it exactly where the game ball had been.

Lou Figueroa

Yup.
That is real knowledge provided by Red's imagination.
The execution is a whole different story.
Doubt anyone could repeat that execution twice in a row.
 
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