Deflection (harder tip)

A different view

I have heard the arguments and watched the test videos. But in my experience, I get more spin with a hard tip on a thick shaft with a hard ferrule. I shoot best with a softer stroke and find that softer tips absorb too much. The combination I use provides a lot of feel with an easy, quick snap.

When I read all of the posts that run contrary to my experience, I am reminded of the number of people who bought into the "perfect music" thing with compact discs when my records still sounded better to me.

I must be "old school". :grin:

Greg
 
Last edited:
Sealegs50 said:
I have heard the arguments and watched the test videos. But in my experience, I get more spin with a hard tip on a thick shaft with a hard ferrule. I shoot best with a softer stroke and find that softer tips absorb too much. The combination I use provides a lot of feel with an easy, quick snap.

When I read all of the posts that run contrary to my experience, I am reminded of the number of people who bought into the "perfect music" thing with compact discs when my records still sounded better to me.

I must be "old school". :grin:

Greg
Click to expand...

It is tough subject, if we thought about the tip being shaped flat say 1/8th inch thick, and 13 mm dia (or long) kinda like a knife edge, shooting CB with it with long side perpendicular to the table, it is almost impossible to shoot a shot with no english due to the fact CB is curved, and the 1/8th inch thin tip, similarly with soft 13 mm tip if tip hit CB at its side 1st due to the soft tip it will grab and spin CB a little, where as hard tip will not grab much and will put less spin than soft tip. The more spin the more swerve/squirt stuff. Try playing with pure rubber tip, it is almost impossible to hit CB without a spin (too much spin)
 
I get more spin with a softer tip. Because we are always hitting downward on the cue ball, this means more swerve. More swerve seems like less squirt. A harder tip seems to have more squirt, but really does not, just less swerve. jmo :smile:
 
Neil said:
You may think that is a good comparison, but it isn't. :wink:

edit: As Jal pointed out, look here http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html at 54 and 59-67 for everything you wanted to know about squirt. It will clear up your misconceptions about it.
Click to expand...

I was just trying to get a laugh out of you ;)

I respect Dr Dave's opinion very much, and I also respect the opinion of most people here on AZ; but on this subject I'm pretty set in stone, as I have changed back and forth between soft and very hard tips many times on my main playing shaft to compare. I put this layered Hercules on once, which is the hardest tip I've ever used, sounded like a phenolic tip... and I could not make a ball because it was squirting so much. I didn't mean to sound like a dick in my previous posts. I was ticked off at my girlfriend and I think it leaked into AZ lol. Sorry :embarrassed2:
 
Most of this stuff is in people's heads. They already decide which tip they like based on feel, and then they manufacture some reasons about why it's better, like "it's getting me better spin, it's more accurate, I have tighter cue ball control with this tip".

Physics-wise none of that stuff is happening, but nobody wants to say "I just like how it feels better" because that doesn't sound very smart or carefully thought out, even if it's the truth.

If you think you hit better with a certain tip, you probably will, because you will subconsciously put a little something extra into it when you shoot with the tip you like. You get a little lower on draw shots, you aim a little more carefully on heavy spin shots, you finesse the speed playing a certain position.
 
I do know that when I have to do a slight long masse' around a ball, I'll make a good hit more often with a soft tip. The hard tip just doesn't curve as much as I think it will. I never seem to get it right with a hard tip.
 
CreeDo said:
Most of this stuff is in people's heads. They already decide which tip they like based on feel, and then they manufacture some reasons about why it's better, like "it's getting me better spin, it's more accurate, I have tighter cue ball control with this tip".

Physics-wise none of that stuff is happening, but nobody wants to say "I just like how it feels better" because that doesn't sound very smart or carefully thought out, even if it's the truth.

If you think you hit better with a certain tip, you probably will, because you will subconsciously put a little something extra into it when you shoot with the tip you like. You get a little lower on draw shots, you aim a little more carefully on heavy spin shots, you finesse the speed playing a certain position.
Click to expand...
:clapping: Excellent!

I just replaced my Kamui Black Hard tip with a Moori Quick (hard) tip, and was surprised at the big difference - the Moori is much softer and virtually soundless compared with the Kamui. Even though I know intellectually that what you say is true, it took some effort to overcome my personal bias and see the difference objectively (just have to hit slightly harder sometimes to get the same effect).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I just replaced my Kamui Black Hard tip with a Moori Quick (hard) tip, and was surprised at the big difference - the Moori is much softer and virtually soundless compared with the Kamui.
Click to expand...

Just about anything that is not a break tip is softer than Kamui Black Hard. I like hard tips, but Kamui's are over the top. I have had a Moori III Quick for a couple of years that I like a lot. After substantial play, it still looks new. I'm not so sure if it will ever wear out. That will be fine by me.

Greg
 
You simply have to perfect your stroke more with an harder tip, the same as having a smaller millimeter and radius tip. Softer will grab quicker and towards the end of the stroke grab in a bigger surface area because the tip will compress quicker. This in the end will give you good action with ease but may make you lazy and help with hitting off center of the CB. Perfecting stroke with an harder tip is more rewarding. I've come to love medium/hard tip thats less than a courter inch off the ferrule.

Even though they are pros, you should look up "what's in the case?" Inside Pool Magazine on youtube. You would be surprised how many of them use medium to hard tips and look how far they are cut down... They seem to get every kind of action they need, but like I said they are pros.

Ive learned to take advantage of CB squirt and deflection, sometimes its easier to not fight the current.
 
spindoctor9 said:
Common knowledge, because anyone who has went from a Kamui SS to a Hard on the same shaft back to back will notice an increase in squirt. And if not, they are not hitting the ball hard enough to really squirt it or they are not much of a player...

I don't understand how it is not common sense that a hard object, hitting another hard obect offcenter, will deflect it more than a softer object would. Hit yourself in the head with a pillow. Now try a bat. See the difference?
Click to expand...

You do not understand the physics of cueball squirt. You are attempting to provide what you call a "common sense" example that unfortunately does not address the actual issue. Remember that with regard to cueball squirt, *something* is going to move sideways when the cueball is struck to the left or right of center. Its either the shaft or the ball. Now what *is* obvious is that both move. The principle component in determining which moves more is the mass of the last 5 inches or so of the shaft. This has been proven conclusively. Also obvious is the fact that a soft tip will compress more than a hard tip. Follow me here. If the tip is compressing, *the shaft is not moving sideways* (as much). This means that by the laws of conservation of momentum, the *ball* moves more. As stated many times, the difference is very small. However, logic would indicate that a more compressible tip would result in *more* cue ball squirt and *less* shaft deflection.

This make sense?

KMRUNOUT
 
Who the h@!! Knows!!! My head hurts thinking about all this. Get a predator shaft, and put whatever tip on it that feels good, and remove the worries!!!:cool:
 
KMRUNOUT said:
You do not understand the physics of cueball squirt. You are attempting to provide what you call a "common sense" example that unfortunately does not address the actual issue. Remember that with regard to cueball squirt, *something* is going to move sideways when the cueball is struck to the left or right of center. Its either the shaft or the ball. Now what *is* obvious is that both move. The principle component in determining which moves more is the mass of the last 5 inches or so of the shaft. This has been proven conclusively. Also obvious is the fact that a soft tip will compress more than a hard tip. Follow me here. If the tip is compressing, *the shaft is not moving sideways* (as much). This means that by the laws of conservation of momentum, the *ball* moves more. As stated many times, the difference is very small. However, logic would indicate that a more compressible tip would result in *more* cue ball squirt and *less* shaft deflection.

This make sense?

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...
It all makes sense except your conclusion. The ball and shaft push each other apart (equal and opposite reaction, right?) So if the softer tip absorbs some of the sideways movement, it does it for both - and there's less squirt, not more.

But this whole question is moot, because the difference is too small to notice anyway.

pj
chgo
 
KMRUNOUT said:
.... If the tip is compressing, *the shaft is not moving sideways* (as much). This means that by the laws of conservation of momentum, the *ball* moves more. As stated many times, the difference is very small. However, logic would indicate that a more compressible tip would result in *more* cue ball squirt and *less* shaft deflection.
Click to expand...
This last part is a little shakey.

With a perfectly straight stroke, prior to contact there is zero momentum perpendicular to the long axis of the cue. During impact, the cueball spins up and thus shoves the cue sideways, to the right for right english, say. The cue has now acquired momentum in the transverse direction. Conservation of momentum says that because there was no transverse momentum before the collision, and no external forces (of any significance at least) were exerted during the collision, the combined or total transverse momentum of the stick and ball must still be zero (or close to it). Therefore, the cueball will acquire the same momentum in the opposite direction, e.g., to the left for right english. Because momentum is a vector entity (i.e., its direction matters), this oppositely directed momentum (to the left) cancels the cue's momentum (to the right).

One explanation (see Dr. Dave's article referenced earlier) is that the longer contact time of the soft tip allows transverse vibrations to travel farther down the shaft during impact. As a result, more mass acquires sideways velocity/momentum. Of course, this explanation can only be true if in fact softer tips do produce more squirt. I don't think this has been established beyond all reasonable doubt as of yet?

Jim
 
Last edited:
I think this thread is a great example that we as players don't know what we are talking about when looking at the gave from a physics standpoint.

If there were no organized science guys publishing information, threads like this with multiple conflicting opinions expressed as facts would have no way of being resolved.

Long live science:)
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It all makes sense except your conclusion. The ball and shaft push each other apart (equal and opposite reaction, right?) So if the softer tip absorbs some of the sideways movement, it does it for both - and there's less squirt, not more.

But this whole question is moot, because the difference is too small to notice anyway.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick,

You make a great point about the effect applying to both the cue ball and the shaft. However, after thinking further on it, I don't think I have enough info to know what is really happening. I don't think either your conclusion or mine is necessarily clear from my premises. What we don't seem to know is whether there is some sideways movement in the shaft and ball *while* the tip is compressing. My guess is that there is, but that it is substantially less than the amount of movement once the tip has compressed fully. If this is the case, then is would seem as though the tip hardness is irrelevant. This would certainly mesh with your (and others') statements that the difference is very very small between a hard tip and a soft tip.

Thanks for the feedback! It is a really cool thought experiment...I think there is a LOT going on in that microsecond...more variables than I think we are accounting for.

KMRUNOUT
 
Jal said:
This last part is a little shakey.

With a perfectly straight stroke, prior to contact there is zero momentum perpendicular to the long axis of the cue. During impact, the cueball spins up and thus shoves the cue sideways, to the right for right english, say. The cue has now acquired momentum in the transverse direction. Conservation of momentum says that because there was no transverse momentum before the collision, and no external forces (of any significance at least) were exerted during the collision, the combined or total transverse momentum of the stick and ball must still be zero (or close to it). Therefore, the cueball will acquire the same momentum in the opposite direction, e.g., to the left for right english. Because momentum is a vector entity (i.e., its direction matters), this oppositely directed momentum (to the left) cancels the cue's momentum (to the right).

One explanation (see Dr. Dave's article referenced earlier) is that the longer contact time of the soft tip allows transverse vibrations to travel farther down the shaft during impact. As a result, more mass acquires sideways velocity/momentum. Of course, this explanation can only be true if in fact softer tips do produce more squirt. I don't think this has been established beyond all reasonable doubt as of yet?

Jim
Click to expand...

Great points and great explanation. I agree with everything you say, but I do not believe that any of it points specifically to a softer tip causing more or less deflection, with the possible exception of the vibration part you mention.

However, I believe after further consideration that my conclusion was not thought through sufficiently. I do not think enough info has been presented in this thread so far to draw an accurate and necessary conclusion either way. Thus I was wrong to suggest mine!

Thanks for the nice thoughts!

KMRUNOUT
 
iusedtoberich said:
I think this thread is a great example that we as players don't know what we are talking about when looking at the gave from a physics standpoint.

If there were no organized science guys publishing information, threads like this with multiple conflicting opinions expressed as facts would have no way of being resolved.

Long live science:)
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. However, I think proposing information and hypotheses is fine as long as it is done with the right mindset. I offered a hypothesis, was then countered with additional information, and am now retracting my hypothesis. I am still interested in compiling more info, and perhaps would be willing to offer a revised hypothesis in the future, which would of course be open to the scrutiny of the community.

To me, that is a wonderful use of a forum. I feel I have gained something from the exchange (or perhaps at very least *lost* a previously, albeit loosely, held misconception).

Good stuff!

KMRUNOUT
 
naji...Just FYI, none of these things have any bearing on the OP's question...to which the answer is NO, it doesn't make any descernable difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

naji said:
Your question missing few facts:

1. Are you hitting with english or center hit
2. Are you shooting hard or soft
3. Is the curvature of the tip the same or one more flat
4. A lot of time when tip is changed the cue shaft gets nice buffing, and becomes very smooth could be that
5. Is your bridge at pivot point for english shots
Click to expand...
 
ENGLISH...Could you please define "a bit longer"? Even Bob Jewett states that the tip is in contact with the CB for about 1/1000th of a second...possibly 2/1000ths with a soft tip. He should know, since he was one of the principles in the Jacksonville Project. In either case, it is not enough to AFFECT the outcome, or to cause an EFFECT in what happens between stick and ball. Stick to what you know best (how YOU can play your best pool), and leave the definitions to the experts.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

ENGLISH! said:
I believe the softer tip stays in contact a bit longer with the cue ball than a harder one. To me this effects the spin which would effect the swerve to squirt ratio.

Just MHO,
RJ
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top