DerbyCity responce

[lfigueroa]

Putting players on the clock will not shorten the time. If you allow average golfers to compete with top pros and they shoot 100 for a round especially average players are matched up playing each other, what would that do to elasped time for the tournament? You have to start earlier on friday and each day thereafter. You also have to start some matches late but not bring those players back early the next day unless reaching the quarters, semi's and/or finals. Just start at 10 AM opening Friday and 8AM thereafter. On the one loss side (if both have one loss) races to two at least until the money rounds. Saving ten minutes here, twenty minutes there, half and hour here adds up at the end of the event. Use the CCTV table more often. There were long periods where it went unused. Clear out those chairs and add three tables maybe four to that area when you have nothing scheduled there. I'm sure some of my suggestions may not be able to be implemented due to staffing constraints etc but clearly starting earlier and starting later matches would help.

Slow play in any sport should not be tolerated -- it's not a matter of what the schedule will allow.

Too many guys use painfully slow play to their advantage just to try and drive their opponents nuts.

Lou Figueroa

 

[SEB]

The nine-ball event was race to seven up to 2014, the year it was changed to make WPA sanctioning possible, but that sanctioning lasted just one year (2015 only) and, I feel, the races should have reverted to seven then and there.

The purists will always take exception, but race to seven wasn't exactly producing unworthy champions, as in the last ten years of race to seven, the champions were: 2004 Souquet, 2005 Reyes, 2006 Souquet, 2007 Fiejen, 2008 Souquet, 2009 SVB, 2010 Reyes, 2011 Orcullo, 2012 SVB, and 2013 Pagulayan. All of them but Feijen are now Hall of Famers and Feijen is sure to get in soon.

Even at race to seven, the Derby City nine ball was always the domain of the elite. It's because the format asks the top players to do their own heavy lifting. With race to seven, the late rounds of the Derby have always featured the game's giants and the winner always had beaten champion after champion, and, with few exceptions, only the all-time greats were up to it.

I think it's time to go back to race to seven. A middle ground might be race to seven until Round 10 and then race to nine.

The alternative, of course, is to reduce the field size. When I saw that the field size was well over 500 players, I immediately changed my flight home, knowing in full that the event would go well into Monday morning.

It is obvious to any onlooker that late entries were permitted, and that was a mistake. Outsiders looking in should only get in through the wait list.

I'd do entries the way Matchroom does. Fix the field size, give the elite invitations and make everybody else sign up online by an announced date. Who would get the invitations? This would need some discussion, but I'd go with a) everyone who is ranked in the top 32 in either the WPA or Matchroom rankings, b) anyone who has ever won a Derby City event, and c) anyone who got to Round 10 in any event in the previous Derby City Classic.

DO NOT LIMIT THE FIELD SIZE!

 

[justnum]

Rent out a flat area, put up tents, allow tailgating, outdoor smoking and the billiard tables. The first large outdoor billiard tournament held outdoors, the tradition starts in Kentucky. Let people sleep in their cars and turn it into the next "woodstock."

I can supply food trucks and vendors and other recreational devices. The Dan Harriman pool production team is ready.

 

[Mole Eye]

I have seen a few comments about cutting the 9ball tournament to race to 7. The problem is not the length of nine ball matches. The problem is the length of one pocket matches. Address that and the problem is solved. I don't know all the details of what Mr. Jewett suggested, but it sounds like an excellent start.

 

[sjm]

I have seen a few comments about cutting the 9ball tournament to race to 7. The problem is not the length of nine ball matches. The problem is the length of one pocket matches. Address that and the problem is solved. I don't know all the details of what Mr. Jewett suggested, but it sounds like an excellent start.

Based on this post, I must assume you were there, but your memory is failing you. Actually, this is in error. The bigger problem was with the nine-ball.

There were less than ten one pocket matches played on Thursday. Entering Friday, the were just five left in one pocket, and ending Friday, there were three one pocket players remaining. In short, very little one pocket was contested after Thursday. It was probably over 95% 9ball on both Friday and Saturday.

On the other hand, the nine ball took an eternity. Some of this was attributable to a field size (of 526) that was too large, but, as others have noted, the super-tight equipment also had much to do with it. All but the truly elite struggled with the equipment and the play in the nine-ball event crawled forward for all but the elite shooters.

No, fixing the one pocket won't fix the Derby.

 

[fiftyyardline]

One more:

A lot of the tournaments now are putting tablets on the tables, and the players themselves keep score right then and there. This does a few things: 1) it ties to online fans to let them know what the score is. 2) It can tie right into fargorate, and report complete match scores. 3) Players no longer have to come to the desk to tell you the score, and you won't have to chase down players that failed to come to the desk to tell you the score.

I have not seen these in person, so I don't know what's involved in setting them up. But maybe whichever company does these (along with the brackets) would partner up with you and provide the service. Maybe there is even a way for each player to have a "DCC Player" app on their phone to keep score, instead of you providing a tablet per table.

Several of the regular tournaments here use Digital Pool - it sends a text to the players when their match is up - and it utilizes live scoring that either player can do on their smart phone including submitting the score at the end of the match.

 

[AtLarge]

The nine-ball event was race to seven up to 2014, the year it was changed to make WPA sanctioning possible, but that sanctioning lasted just one year (2015 only) and, I feel, the races should have reverted to seven then and there.

The purists will always take exception, but race to seven wasn't exactly producing unworthy champions, as in the last ten years of race to seven, the champions were: 2004 Souquet, 2005 Reyes, 2006 Souquet, 2007 Fiejen, 2008 Souquet, 2009 SVB, 2010 Reyes, 2011 Orcullo, 2012 SVB, and 2013 Pagulayan. All of them but Feijen are now Hall of Famers and Feijen is sure to get in soon.

Even at race to seven, the Derby City nine ball was always the domain of the elite. It's because the format asks the top players to do their own heavy lifting. With race to seven, the late rounds of the Derby have always featured the game's giants and the winner always had beaten champion after champion, and, with few exceptions, only the all-time greats were up to it.

I think it's time to go back to race to seven. A middle ground might be race to seven until Round 10 and then race to nine. ...

This is certainly true. It takes a top-notch player to survive the gauntlet of other top-notch players in the late rounds of the event whether the race is to 7 or 9. But, obviously, not everyone who gets to 7 first will also get to 9 first, so the order of finish will be different between the two race lengths.

I was curious about the frequency with which the match loser in the races to 9 was the first player to reach 7. I looked at all of the Accu-Stats streamed matches for the past 10 events (the races to 9 started in 2013, not 2014 or 2015). Out of 117 streamed matches, the loser reached 7 before the winner did in 20 of the matches, or about 1 out of every 6 matches. These 20 matches included the Finals in 2018 (Melling d. Morra 9-8 from a 3-7 deficit) and 2013 (Corteza d. Orcollo 9-7 in each of 2 sets after trailing 6-7 in the first set and 5-7 in the second). In one of SVB's championship years, 2014, he trailed Daulton 5-7 in a fairly early round. A loss would have been his second, knocking him out of the event, but he rallied for a 9-7 win and went on through many more rounds to win the tournament.

I'm not arguing that the races should remain at 9, although I would prefer that if some other way could be found to "fix" things. But I thought it was kind of interesting to see how often matches in the last 10 events might have had different winners with shorter races. [Assumes that the games would have been won in the same order in the shorter races, which might not have happened.]

 

[Mole Eye]

Based on this post, I must assume you were there, but your memory is failing you. Actually, this is in error. The bigger problem was with the nine-ball.

There were less than ten one pocket matches played on Thursday. Entering Friday, the were just five left in one pocket, and ending Friday, there were three one pocket players remaining. In short, very little one pocket was contested after Thursday. It was probably over 95% 9ball on both Friday and Saturday.

On the other hand, the nine ball took an eternity. Some of this was attributable to a field size (of 526) that was too large, but, as others have noted, the super-tight equipment also had much to do with it. All but the truly elite struggled with the equipment and the play in the nine-ball event crawled forward for all but the elite shooters.

No, fixing the one pocket won't fix the Derby.

Based on this post, I must assume you were there, but your memory is failing you. Actually, this is in error. The bigger problem was with the nine-ball.

There were less than ten one pocket matches played on Thursday. Entering Friday, the were just five left in one pocket, and ending Friday, there were three one pocket players remaining. In short, very little one pocket was contested after Thursday. It was probably over 95% 9ball on both Friday and Saturday.

On the other hand, the nine ball took an eternity. Some of this was attributable to a field size (of 526) that was too large, but, as others have noted, the super-tight equipment also had much to do with it. All but the truly elite struggled with the equipment and the play in the nine-ball event crawled forward for all but the elite shooters.

No, fixing the one pocket won't fix the Derby.

Yes sir, I was there, watching 4 and 5 hour one pocket matches.

 

[gypsy_soul]

Greg, Is moving the location even an option?
Indy, French Lick, Jeffersonville, etc.

St. louis area would be perfect!!!!

 

[Clusterbuster]

This is certainly true. It takes a top-notch player to survive the gauntlet of other top-notch players in the late rounds of the event whether the race is to 7 or 9. But, obviously, not everyone who gets to 7 first will also get to 9 first, so the order of finish will be different between the two race lengths.

I was curious about the frequency with which the match loser in the races to 9 was the first player to reach 7. I looked at all of the Accu-Stats streamed matches for the past 10 events (the races to 9 started in 2013, not 2014 or 2015). Out of 117 streamed matches, the loser reached 7 before the winner did in 20 of the matches, or about 1 out of every 6 matches. These 20 matches included the Finals in 2018 (Melling d. Morra 9-8 from a 3-7 deficit) and 2013 (Corteza d. Orcollo 9-7 in each of 2 sets after trailing 6-7 in the first set and 5-7 in the second). In one of SVB's championship years, 2014, he trailed Daulton 5-7 in a fairly early round. A loss would have been his second, knocking him out of the event, but he rallied for a 9-7 win and went on through many more rounds to win the tournament.

I'm not arguing that the races should remain at 9, although I would prefer that if some other way could be found to "fix" things. But I thought it was kind of interesting to see how often matches in the last 10 events might have had different winners with shorter races. [Assumes that the games would have been won in the same order in the shorter races, which might not have happened.]

Excellent post. Analysis and not assumption!

 

[sjm]

This is certainly true. It takes a top-notch player to survive the gauntlet of other top-notch players in the late rounds of the event whether the race is to 7 or 9. But, obviously, not everyone who gets to 7 first will also get to 9 first, so the order of finish will be different between the two race lengths.

I was curious about the frequency with which the match loser in the races to 9 was the first player to reach 7. I looked at all of the Accu-Stats streamed matches for the past 10 events (the races to 9 started in 2013, not 2014 or 2015). Out of 117 streamed matches, the loser reached 7 before the winner did in 20 of the matches, or about 1 out of every 6 matches. These 20 matches included the Finals in 2018 (Melling d. Morra 9-8 from a 3-7 deficit) and 2013 (Corteza d. Orcollo 9-7 in each of 2 sets after trailing 6-7 in the first set and 5-7 in the second). In one of SVB's championship years, 2014, he trailed Daulton 5-7 in a fairly early round. A loss would have been his second, knocking him out of the event, but he rallied for a 9-7 win and went on through many more rounds to win the tournament.

I'm not arguing that the races should remain at 9, although I would prefer that if some other way could be found to "fix" things. But I thought it was kind of interesting to see how often matches in the last 10 events might have had different winners with shorter races. [Assumes that the games would have been won in the same order in the shorter races, which might not have happened.]

Great post, and no doubt, results will be slightly different when races are shortened, but not very different. I feel, however, that on tables this tight, the cream can rise more easily to the top in a race of any length, and this was the first Derby in which every table was tight.

Like you, I'd prefer a different solution for dealing with slow play in the 9ball and shot clocks at 41 tables is an impossibility.

 

[sjm]

Yes sir, I was there, watching 4 and 5 hour one pocket matches.

Yes, I saw them too, this year and at every other Derby Cty Classic. It's just that this year, the one pocket did not back up the nine ball much, because over 95% of the one pocket matches were finished by Thursday. Two days of having the stage to itself should have been enough to get the 9ball done on schedule, but the combination of poor schedule management and very difficult equipment slowed everything down.

Hope you had a good experience at the Derby.

 

[telinoz]

Slow play in any sport should not be tolerated -- it's not a matter of what the schedule will allow.

Too many guys use painfully slow play to their advantage just to try and drive their opponents nuts.

Lou Figueroa

100%

 

[telinoz]

Nice lessons learned thread.
Good to see constructive criticism received well on here, with the organiser taking part.

 

[justnum]

Policing slow play can be discriminatory.

Its unclear if players have conditions that require accommodations.

There is no established guideline for players participating in tournaments with documented medical conditions.

Should players with medical conditions or cognitive problems be treated the same as other players? This would require legal people to provide a proper response.

If anyone is interested in sponsoring special billiard tournaments for wheelchair bound or other medical conditions the Harriman Academy is interested in a partnership.

 

[Black-Balled]

Moving the location is an option not a real good option right now because we are in a legal contract. I’m not sure but it might be for three more years but that doesn’t mean I can’t get out of the contract. I’ve got a meeting set up with them, which I want to discuss several things that I think it’s very important, but I’m not happy with, I’d like to keep the event where it’s at if it all possible but they’re going to have to do some changes and make things better. We’ll see I’m not asking them for money as they already add money to the event of course not enough but still they do help immensely without their help I couldn’t put the event on , but that’ll mean they can’t do other things that I feel are in Porten. I’m not gonna go into those right now I’m going to talk to the hotel first. I’ll keep y’all posted.

A post event roundup is a great help to a partnership...and you and the whores shoe both benefit from the Show's success.

Get um!

 

[Black-Balled]

Policing slow play can be discriminatory.

Its unclear if players have conditions that require accommodations.

There is no established guideline for players participating in tournaments with documented medical conditions.

Should players with medical conditions or cognitive problems be treated the same as other players? This would require legal people to provide a proper response.

If anyone is interested in sponsoring special billiard tournaments for wheelchair bound or other medical conditions the Harriman Academy is interested in a partnership.

There is a lawyer in Cali that will help you tie up any entity in legal discussions and I hear he really likes pool as his victim.

Take your dumb shit elsewhere, fool.

 

[Mole Eye]

Yes, I saw them too, this year and at every other Derby Cty Classic. It's just that this year, the one pocket did not back up the nine ball much, because over 95% of the one pocket matches were finished by Thursday. Two days of having the stage to itself should have been enough to get the 9ball done on schedule, but the combination of poor schedule management and very difficult equipment slowed everything down.

Hope you had a good experience at the Derby.

I had a great time, as always. Hope you did too. Hopefully Diamond will find the right answer, whatever it might be

 

[briankenobi]

I know people have mentioned the food and even Greg mentioned it. Again its subjective. I think everyone can agree that it is expensive to eat there, but again, its a casino so that's expected. I just fail to see how Greg can go to the casino and have the casino alter their menu just for an event that is 10 days out of 365. Maybe have a DCC special for that time frame but just don't see the casino changing their menu for that.

 

[ALT_ESV]

I know people have mentioned the food and even Greg mentioned it. Again its subjective. I think everyone can agree that it is expensive to eat there, but again, its a casino so that's expected. I just fail to see how Greg can go to the casino and have the casino alter their menu just for an event that is 10 days out of 365. Maybe have a DCC special for that time frame but just don't see the casino changing their menu for that.

One example is how there was a mini bar right outside the entrance downstairs for the first couple of days and then it was vacant for the rest of the tournament. That one person bar helped to alleviate some of the pressure from going to general casino bars.

Also, the fountain drinks being out of order next to the tournament entrance and having to constantly go over to the food court was annoying. It’s small steps but over time gets annoying. It seemed that it may have been easier to just mark “out of order” from a casino perspective to keep people from staying hydrated/caffeinated.