diagrams pertaining to pivot-based aiming systems

Qualifications PJ what are yours.
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We're talking about qualifications for understanding how these systems work, right? One qualification that absolutely is not necessary is pool playing ability. I know any number of people who never play pool but would instantly understand these systems better than any system user in these threads.

But understanding these systems obviously isn't a requirement for getting benefit from them. In fact, I think real understanding would probably be a drawback for many system users because one of the most important things for them is that they believe systems work and real understanding might undermine that.

For this reason I'm of two minds about the usefulness of these analytical discussions about systems. On one hand I think it's generally valuable to understand how they really work so they can be improved and taught more effectively. On the other hand I think maybe these discussions should be held in private because they might not help system users get the most from their systems.

I think maybe these systems are really for "feel" players. Maybe their main benefit is that they provide a structure or framework - a system - for developing and refining a player's "feel skills".

pj
chgo
 
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AS with any lesson you've been told how to do it, you've been shown how to do it, how about doing it on video and maybe we can help you learn what you might be doing wrong!!!
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What makes you think I'm doing something wrong?

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
No one would know because you never man-up and post any videos.
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Dave,

It's FAR easier to skirt the issue and sidestep any direct response to posting a video demonstration. It much easier to argue from a hypothetical standpoint.


Eric >will post a vid for open criticism
 
All I'm saying is I know I get more technique flack than anyone on the board (this skin is moving, this finger is moving, I'm swooping, etc. etc.). Yet, I'm the only one who posts videos.

I just wish everyone else would too. PJ thinks I'm prob dogging him, but I'm really just trying to get him to contribute the same.

I'm just curious if the ghost-ball defenders can "see" their own ghost ball. Otherwise, what are they defending?

Would love to see Dr. Dave, PJ, and the aiming police (I mean this affectionately by now, trust me) post Colin's ball potting test.

edit: Ghost ball is geometrically as good as it can get. HOWEVER, what good is it if you can't see it and hit it??? Would rather use something geometrically "pretty close" and see it every time, repeatedly, when it counts...all day long.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
All I'm saying is I know I get more technique flack than anyone on the board (this skin is moving, this finger is moving, I'm swooping, etc. etc.). Yet, I'm the only one who posts videos.

I just wish everyone else would too. PJ thinks I'm prob dogging him, but I'm really just trying to get him to contribute the same.

I'm just curious if the ghost-ball defenders can "see" their own ghost ball. Otherwise, what are they defending?

Would love to see Dr. Dave, PJ, and the aiming police (I mean this affectionately by now, trust me) post Colin's ball potting test.

edit: Ghost ball is geometrically as good as it can get. HOWEVER, what good is it if you can't see it and hit it??? Would rather use something geometrically "pretty close" and see it every time, repeatedly, when it counts...all day long.
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We have a serious disconnect here Dave. I see zero value in anybody posting a video. What are these videos trying to show?

If we're evaluating a PRESCRIPTION, isn't it better to just post the prescription? Perhaps diagrams are useful to convey clearly what a person is trying to say.

But once we post videos, the actual COMMUNICATION about the prescription goes way south, imo.
 
Mike:

I think the tone of this and every thread is that pivot aiming systems (all of them) are geometrically flawed and of value only to the nutty people who use them. I believe there's more going on in how the sighting and pivoting works in real life than what happens on these cue table diagrams.

I believe Colin and Dr. Dave post thoughts about the benefits of these systems, say how they want to learn how they WORK, when it is really a passive way of spinning it to why they do not. (not a knock, it's just that they're on the other side of the fence :) )

If I had to compare the amount of feel I used when pocketing balls in years past to what I do now, I think an honest assessment is probably 3:1. Otherwise, I'd still be aiming ghost ball.

These aiming threads are investigative reports on debunking aiming myths.

So, my part is to see who in this discussion can really aim to begin with? Vision/perception is an equal component to process and execution. I think my calls to have everyone post a video is completely valid.

If some of the others in this thread pocket balls like a C player, who are they to say what's legit or not if they don't have a decent level of play and a high level of playing experience with all aiming/sighting systems and methods. I've run over 50 (I know that's not super compared to other guys here) with ghost ball, fractional, RonV, CTE and Pro1. I think if someone wants to explain why pivot systems are inferior, they need to explain from experience and not from a chalk board. Explain from experience and I'm totally cool. Explain with a cuetable diagram and it makes me laugh.

So in conclusion, all of AZB checks out these threads now because it's a soap opera... not because of the information. Let's get down to debunking and see who KNOWS why they work and why they dont (from practical application).

Regards,
Spider
 
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You have that backwards...The 90/90 works from a straight in shot to a half ball hit which I call split the difference as long as the half ball hit is more than two diamonds apart...I

f you need proof just come to NYC you don`t live that far from me...Then I will prove and answer all of your ?`s
 
I think the tone of this and every thread is that pivot aiming systems (all of them) are geometrically flawed and of value only to the nutty people who use them.

[...]

I believe Colin and Dr. Dave post thoughts about the benefits of these systems, say how they want to learn how they WORK, when it is really a passive way of spinning it to why they do not.
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It boggles my mind that you still don't (or won't) get the difference between whether a system works and how it works. This plus your misunderstanding about how to find out and your insecurity about your image (both shown by your insistence that everybody take a shooting "entrance exam") makes communicating with you about this stuff pretty much impossible.

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Mike:

I think the tone of this and every thread is that pivot aiming systems (all of them) are geometrically flawed and of value only to the nutty people who use them. I believe there's more going on in how the sighting and pivoting works in real life than what happens on these cue table diagrams.
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OK. If so, then one of two things is true. Either the "more" is part of the system (the prescription) and we can examine it and revise our diagrams and instructions accordingly... Or the "more" is not part of the system (the prescription), in which case the supposed good results cannot claim to come from the system. If the specific prescription somehow encourages people to adopt a perspective that makes life easier for them, then that is a great thing to discuss LATER.

I believe Colin and Dr. Dave post thoughts about the benefits of these systems, say how they want to learn how they WORK, when it is really a passive way of spinning it to why they do not. (not a knock, it's just that they're on the other side of the fence :) )
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I think you're selling them short here.

If I had to compare the amount of feel I used when pocketing balls in years past to what I do now, I think an honest assessment is probably 3:1. Otherwise, I'd still be aiming ghost ball.
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I have ideas as to why that might be.

These aiming threads are investigative reports on debunking aiming myths.
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OK, sounds reasonable.

So, my part is to see who in this discussion can really aim to begin with? Vision/perception is an equal component to process and execution. I think my calls to have everyone post a video is completely valid.

If some of the others in this thread pocket balls like a C player, who are they to say what's legit or not if they don't have a decent level of play and a high level of playing experience with all aiming/sighting systems and methods. I've run over 50 (I know that's not super compared to other guys here) with ghost ball, fractional, RonV, CTE and Pro1. I think if someone wants to explain why pivot systems are inferior, they need to explain from experience and not from a chalk board. Explain from experience and I'm totally cool. Explain with a cuetable diagram and it makes me laugh.

So in conclusion, all of AZB checks out these threads now because it's a soap opera... not because of the information. Let's get down to debunking and see who KNOWS why they work and why they dont (from practical application).

Regards,
Spider
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I don't agree with you here. Statements about whether a particular prescription gets to the right aim are objectively either true, false, or inconclusive. The truth or falsehood of the statements exists separate from the communicator.
 
the catch

Mike,

The catch is that the diagrams are based on someone's understanding of what they are trying to diagram in these threads, rarely full knowledge of the subject. I haven't installed CAD software on this new computer yet but when I do I can happily create diagrams with arcing sight lines and arcing lines of aim. Also I can make any shot, pocket the ball in any pocket on the table, using a half ball hit . . . in a diagram.

Diagrams and animations created from scratch mean absolutely nothing other than they are helpful to explain what someone is trying to say. I created hundreds of diagrams, charts and graphs as a CAD operator back in the early 90's. They were only as good as the information given to me and usually underwent multiple revisions before they were certified and placed in the records.

Hu


mikepage said:
We have a serious disconnect here Dave. I see zero value in anybody posting a video. What are these videos trying to show?

If we're evaluating a PRESCRIPTION, isn't it better to just post the prescription? Perhaps diagrams are useful to convey clearly what a person is trying to say.

But once we post videos, the actual COMMUNICATION about the prescription goes way south, imo.
Click to expand...
 
mikepage said:
OK. If so, then one of two things is true. Either the "more" is part of the system (the prescription) and we can examine it and revise our diagrams and instructions accordingly... Or the "more" is not part of the system (the prescription), in which case the supposed good results cannot claim to come from the system. If the specific prescription somehow encourages people to adopt a perspective that makes life easier for them, then that is a great thing to discuss LATER.



I think you're selling them short here.



I have ideas as to why that might be.



OK, sounds reasonable.



I don't agree with you here. Statements about whether a particular prescription gets to the right aim are objectively either true, false, or inconclusive. The truth or falsehood of the statements exists separate from the communicator.
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Mike, I'm always interested in your thoughts. I like how you communicate. I honestly don't think everyone truly understands what happens with these systems to prove/disprove in real life. All we know is that they are a STRONG way of pocketing balls- all balls.

I think I'm getting a little upset with all the cue-table diagrams showing how they're geometrically impossible systems, yet many of you state "we know they work."

I think that's where I'm getting upset. It seems as though it's a passive-aggressive way to prove why they don't. I might be wrong, it's just how the thread reads.

I stand by my comment about current ball pocketing ability of those in the discussion. It's relevant, imo. More so than that, we'd get to the bottom of this fast if more people tried it instead of knocking it. Nearly all of the data comes from me, Ron, and maybe 1 or 2 others. If some of you would use them for a few months, you might be able to report back things I never thought of.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
We're talking about qualifications for understanding how these systems work, right? One qualification that absolutely is not necessary is pool playing ability. I know any number of people who never play pool but would instantly understand these systems better than any system user in these threads.

But understanding these systems obviously isn't a requirement for getting benefit from them. In fact, I think real understanding would probably be a drawback for many system users because one of the most important things for them is that they believe systems work and real understanding might undermine that.

For this reason I'm of two minds about the usefulness of these analytical discussions about systems. On one hand I think it's generally valuable to understand how they really work so they can be improved and taught more effectively. On the other hand I think maybe these discussions should be held in private because they might not help system users get the most from their systems.

I think maybe these systems are really for "feel" players. Maybe their main benefit is that they provide a structure or framework - a system - for developing and refining a player's "feel skills".

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Alot of maybees, try it on the table!!!
 
mikepage said:
We have a serious disconnect here Dave. I see zero value in anybody posting a video. What are these videos trying to show?

If we're evaluating a PRESCRIPTION, isn't it better to just post the prescription? Perhaps diagrams are useful to convey clearly what a person is trying to say.

But once we post videos, the actual COMMUNICATION about the prescription goes way south, imo.
Click to expand...
If their not getting the system to work maybe a video of them will help us explain what they are doing wrong!!1
 
ShootingArts said:
Mike,

The catch is that the diagrams are based on someone's understanding of what they are trying to diagram in these threads, rarely full knowledge of the subject. [...]
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That's fine. The people with more knowledge should try to help out the diagrammer so that he can generate a new diagram that is faithful to the prescription.
 
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