Diamond Banking System

[Pool Player]

Hi all, I've been searching for a reliable banking system. And it seems like the Diamond System widely mentioned.

While it seems to be useful when the layout of the bank is simple as shown below:

CueTable Help

But I seem to have difficulty using the system for situations as shown:

CueTable Help

Is there any misunderstanding on my part? Thanks!

 

[renard]

Whats the question?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here's the CueTable diagram:

CueTable Help

By the way, that's a kick, not a bank.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

That is the "double the diamond" system for kicking one cushion to a pocket (or for banking at low speed). It works fairly well until the angle gets around 45 degrees. It is almost a mirror system, but is not quite since the diamonds are not where the ball is reflected. The discrepancy tends to compensate for the hook the ball will take off the cushion for less-perpendicular-to-the-cushion shots.

 

[Pool Player]

bumps...any help?

 

[freddy the beard]

Get the books

The actual application of bank systems and angles, including the adjustments you need to make over and above the 2 to 1, mirror system can be learned by reading my 2 bank pool books, Banking With The Beard, and The GosPool of Bank Pool. My teachings start at the 2 to 1 mirror system and then go on from there to show the allowances you need to make for speed, angle, english and draw and follow.

Beard

 

[Jal]

bumps...any help?

Bob J. gave you the explanation. Unless hit rather briskly, and/or the object ball is close to the cushion, the OB develops a lot of topspin on the way to the cushion, some of which it retains after rebounding. This causes it to masse forward of the rebound line. That's what he meant by "hook." At a 45 degree angle of incidence (or thereabouts), this retained topspin is cutting directly across the rebound line (perpendicular to it). Thus, it tends to bank long - the effective angle of reflection becoming greater than the angle of incidence.

You can adjust by altering the first cushion target, as per your diagram, or by putting more speed into the shot so that the OB doesn't acquire as much follow (topspin). If you want to get fancy/schmancy, you could also induce some left sidespin on the OB by using right english on the CB in your example, but this is obviously a Rube Goldberg solution to a not so difficult problem.

Jim

 

[bboxgrinder]

Kicking Academy

Here is a good writeup on diamond systems. I believe it was done by a member here. I can't really remember as I have had it for some time, either way it is done very well.

http://www.deadstrokeuniversity.com/Kicking_Academy.pdf

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hard to tell from your diagram, but it looks to me like you might be making a measuring mistake.

When the ball is not exactly on a "reference track" (like the side-pocket-to-corner-pocket track you show in your second diagram), you have to adjust the aim point on the far rail accordingly.

You have to find the line through the ball that points to a beginning point on the near rail and an aim point on the far rail, such that the beginning point is twice the distance from its end of the reference track (on the near rail) as the adjusted aim point is from its end of the reference track (on the far rail).

Here's an example, using a reference track and adjusted aim track that both fall on diamonds for clarity:

CueTable Help

pj
chgo

 

[Dead Crab]

I am going to go back to your original post, second diagram, as I see a very major flaw in your approach to the shot diagrammed. If I am missing your point, ignore me and just move on.

1. First: when planning a bank shot, use the diamonds ONLY for the object ball. The original diagram for the 1-ball is roughly what I call a 21-42 bank. That is, the bank line passes thru the center of the one ball, hits the rail at 2.1 diamonds (I use 21, 10 units per diamond). Now, to get the 2:1 ratio, it also passes thru the 42 position (4.2 diamonds) on the near rail.

This is how you define your bank:It is the line thru the OB, that intersects the near rail at twice the distance as the banking rail. I sense that you are getting this part.

2. What I don't think you are seeing, is how the cue ball factors in. The CB is not used in calculating the "natural" geometric bank. Having calculated the bank for the OB, you must now aim the CB so that you cut the OB onto the desired path. For this, case, aim the CB so that the OB hits the "21" position on the rail. From your diagram, it looks like you want to cut the 1-ball about 10 degrees to the left, so you would aim the CB to contact the 1-ball about 1cm to the right of the 1-ball center. If you do this, it will send the 1-ball along the 42-21 path and you should complete the bank. As this is a cross-over bank, the english imparted from the 10 degree cut should work to your favor.

 

[dr_dave]

Hi all, I've been searching for a reliable banking system. And it seems like the Diamond System widely mentioned.

While it seems to be useful when the layout of the bank is simple...

But I seem to have difficulty using the system for situations as shown...

Is there any misunderstanding on my part? Thanks!

It looks like you are diagramming the equal-distance mirror system for bank and kick shots. This system works well only at smaller angles, shorter distances, and/or faster speeds. The through-diamond rolling-cue-ball one-rail kick system works better for slower or longer-distance shots, but this system (like all bank and kick systems) sometimes requires "adjustments" (click on the link for more info). FYI, many other systems (and various effects you need to be aware of) for various types of kick and bank shots can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html​

Good luck,
Dave

 

[Pool Player]

I am going to go back to your original post, second diagram, as I see a very major flaw in your approach to the shot diagrammed. If I am missing your point, ignore me and just move on.

1. First: when planning a bank shot, use the diamonds ONLY for the object ball. The original diagram for the 1-ball is roughly what I call a 21-42 bank. That is, the bank line passes thru the center of the one ball, hits the rail at 2.1 diamonds (I use 21, 10 units per diamond). Now, to get the 2:1 ratio, it also passes thru the 42 position (4.2 diamonds) on the near rail.

This is how you define your bank:It is the line thru the OB, that intersects the near rail at twice the distance as the banking rail. I sense that you are getting this part.

2. What I don't think you are seeing, is how the cue ball factors in. The CB is not used in calculating the "natural" geometric bank. Having calculated the bank for the OB, you must now aim the CB so that you cut the OB onto the desired path. For this, case, aim the CB so that the OB hits the "21" position on the rail. From your diagram, it looks like you want to cut the 1-ball about 10 degrees to the left, so you would aim the CB to contact the 1-ball about 1cm to the right of the 1-ball center. If you do this, it will send the 1-ball along the 42-21 path and you should complete the bank. As this is a cross-over bank, the english imparted from the 10 degree cut should work to your favor.

Does that mean that I've gotten the system right and just have to shoot the OB through the 2.1 diamond?

 

[JE54]

Subscribing to this thread.....................

 

[jay helfert]

More bad news for all you prospective Bankers. Forget ALL the systems! Yes, you heard me right. Forget about it! Banks is not about systems, it's about feel for the rails, the balls, the english, the cloth and all that. If you have to think about it too much, you'll never make it. You better be able to look at that bank and "feel" how you have to hit it.

All the good bankers were feel players. They never had to analyze the angles and use any system to figure out where to hit a bank. What was going on in their minds was, what's the proper contact point on the object ball, how hard to hit the ball, and how much english to use. And they made these calculations almost instantly on most shots. They see the shot and they "know" how to hit it. When you see a banker studying a shot, he is figuring how much room he has and what he has to do to make this shot. He's not studying the diamonds, you can believe that.

You can greatly affect the angle of any bank shot by how you hit the object ball, using speed and english to change the angle. In other words the same shot can be hit several different ways to alter the angle of the bank. I hope this all makes sense because it's what makes good bankers as opposed to system players. You could know the diamond system like the back of your hand and not have a chance against a Bugs or a Taylor. The diamond system may be good for kicking at balls when you're hooked, but I'm not so sure these aren't feel shots as well. You can alter kicking angles just as easily as bank angles.

Listen to some good bankers talking sometime. They are talking about "squeezing" and "holding" and "opening up" banks. You hear conver-sations about how much the rails grab and how short or long they bank. This ain't the diamond system they're talking about. Believe me they're not even looking at those diamonds on the rail!

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[Dead Crab]

Does that mean that I've gotten the system right and just have to shoot the OB through the 2.1 diamond?

1. It does mean you have the system right.

2. If you shoot a 1-rail bank "through" the diamond, it will tend to come up short because it will hit the cushion higher up the rail than the actual diamond position. So, some compensation is needed for this.

3. Imagining that the diamonds are on the point of the cushion rather than 3 11/16 inches back helps a lot, but there are other factors that may affect the rebound angle. Learning to control the rebound angle is the key to successful banking.

 

[Dead Crab]

More bad news for all you prospective Bankers. Forget ALL the systems! Yes, you heard me right. Forget about it! Banks is not about systems, it's about feel for the rails, the balls, the english, the cloth and all that. If you have to think about it too much, you'll never make it. You better be able to look at that bank and "feel" how you have to hit it.

All the good bankers were feel players. They never had to analyze the angles and use any system to figure out where to hit a bank. What was going on in their minds was, what's the proper contact point on the object ball, how hard to hit the ball, and how much english to use. And they made these calculations almost instantly on most shots. They see the shot and they "know" how to hit it. When you see a banker studying a shot, he is figuring how much room he has and what he has to do to make this shot. He's not studying the diamonds, you can believe that.

You can greatly affect the angle of any bank shot by how you hit the object ball, using speed and english to change the angle. In other words the same shot can be hit several different ways to alter the angle of the bank. I hope this all makes sense because it's what makes good bankers as opposed to system players. You could know the diamond system like the back of your hand and not have a chance against a Bugs or a Taylor. The diamond system may be good for kicking at balls when you're hooked, but I'm not so sure these aren't feel shots as well. You can alter kicking angles just as easily as bank angles.

Listen to some good bankers talking sometime. They are talking about "squeezing" and "holding" and "opening up" banks. You hear conver-sations about how much the rails grab and how short or long they bank. This ain't the diamond system they're talking about. Believe me they're not even looking at those diamonds on the rail!

I don't question what you say, but I have heard that Tony Fargo uses a banking system.

I will also note that banks is a hardly a break-and-run type of game, and that even with all of that feely stuff going on, it isn't unusual for top players to shoot around 50% ... even if they are winning.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

More bad news for all you prospective Bankers. Forget ALL the systems! Yes, you heard me right. Forget about it! Banks is not about systems, it's about feel for the rails, the balls, the english, the cloth and all that. If you have to think about it too much, you'll never make it. You better be able to look at that bank and "feel" how you have to hit it.

All the good bankers were feel players. They never had to analyze the angles and use any system to figure out where to hit a bank. What was going on in their minds was, what's the proper contact point on the object ball, how hard to hit the ball, and how much english to use. And they made these calculations almost instantly on most shots. They see the shot and they "know" how to hit it. When you see a banker studying a shot, he is figuring how much room he has and what he has to do to make this shot. He's not studying the diamonds, you can believe that.

You can greatly affect the angle of any bank shot by how you hit the object ball, using speed and english to change the angle. In other words the same shot can be hit several different ways to alter the angle of the bank. I hope this all makes sense because it's what makes good bankers as opposed to system players. You could know the diamond system like the back of your hand and not have a chance against a Bugs or a Taylor. The diamond system may be good for kicking at balls when you're hooked, but I'm not so sure these aren't feel shots as well. You can alter kicking angles just as easily as bank angles.

Listen to some good bankers talking sometime. They are talking about "squeezing" and "holding" and "opening up" banks. You hear conver-sations about how much the rails grab and how short or long they bank. This ain't the diamond system they're talking about. Believe me they're not even looking at those diamonds on the rail!

Using the diamonds to visualize "geometric" angles or "system" angles is just a way of getting more information. You don't have to shoot any shot right on the angle you visualize that way, and visualizing angles that way doesn't prevent you from using any of the angle-changing techniques you mention. In fact, it helps to figure exactly what angle change might be needed and what technique might be best to produce it. If used correctly, measurements and systems are references, not limitations.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[dr_dave]

2. If you shoot a 1-rail bank "through" the diamond, it will tend to come up short because it will hit the cushion higher up the rail than the actual diamond position. So, some compensation is needed for this.

Actually, with a rolling-ball kick or bank, this system works very well. For a demonstration, see:

through-diamond rolling-cue-ball one-rail kick system​

provided you have also taken into account other bank effects, when appropriate.

Regards,
Dave