Diamond bar boxes are trash
- Thread starter alphadog
- Start date
inneresting!
My seven foot valley with high quality cushions replacing factory ones and simonis didn't play badly but the seven foot Diamonds I have played on played much better.
I thought the seven foot Diamonds played a little bit more like Brunswicks than the nine footers. Old eyes don't come into play as much on the seven footers so while I like nine footers and ten footers even better I am rapidly falling into a seven foot game. Need to go see the eye doctor.
Hu
My seven foot valley with high quality cushions replacing factory ones and simonis didn't play badly but the seven foot Diamonds I have played on played much better.
I thought the seven foot Diamonds played a little bit more like Brunswicks than the nine footers. Old eyes don't come into play as much on the seven footers so while I like nine footers and ten footers even better I am rapidly falling into a seven foot game. Need to go see the eye doctor.
Hu
So your inability to adjust to rail speed is the tables fault .. got it.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I've only paid a few dozen games on Diamond bar boxes but I have no complaints. Depending on the speed of the cloth it can be a real finesse game with soft strokes and one tip of English being plenty.
Diamond is the gold standard in pool. Especially on a bar box.
But…
I’m coming around to this line of thinking. I appreciate that you are more likely to put Simonis on a Diamond than a Valley. And I know Valleys tend to play “on system” for most bank and kick systems and Diamonds can too if you adjust for the bit they come short. But honestly. I have played in bars all across the country. Most Valleys play exactly the same. But every Diamond I play on seems to play wildly differently. Most have fast cloth. They all bank short. But I enter a lot that play weird. Some refuse to take any spin off the rail and some take it like there is no cloth at all. It’s crazy how inconsistent they are out in the wild. In a quality venue they play reasonable but some places I can’t figure them out.
But…
I’m coming around to this line of thinking. I appreciate that you are more likely to put Simonis on a Diamond than a Valley. And I know Valleys tend to play “on system” for most bank and kick systems and Diamonds can too if you adjust for the bit they come short. But honestly. I have played in bars all across the country. Most Valleys play exactly the same. But every Diamond I play on seems to play wildly differently. Most have fast cloth. They all bank short. But I enter a lot that play weird. Some refuse to take any spin off the rail and some take it like there is no cloth at all. It’s crazy how inconsistent they are out in the wild. In a quality venue they play reasonable but some places I can’t figure them out.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I think how well a table is serviced and maintained is the primary factor, unless the table is shite to begin with. The diamonds I have played on tend to have good cloth and be well maintained. I don't see many Valleys around here, it's usually Dynamo 88s, and those vary a lot.
I've been to a lot of gold crown rooms with tables that are wildly different. Id think many of us have.
Gotta be ilargely in the setup, I think.
While I know of a few exceptions the Diamonds around here are usually in good shape with quality cloth on them. I moved back and forth between a Diamond seven footer and some valleys only a few feet from the Diamond. I tuned to the Diamond very easily but found the valleys so annoying I wouldn't play on them.
Climate control or not, outside conditions make a big difference. Major adjustments needed to adjust to Dallas from New Orleans. The banking angles are far better in Dallas, my opinion.
So many other factors that it is hard to rate good quality tables against each other. I played on a cheap home table, now that thing was awful!!
Hu
Diamond "small" tables are the Cadillacs of the field right now, until somone makes something that is comparable. Valley's are the Chevy's!
Your stroke on a Diamond 7 foot needs to be adjusted to the likeness of a baseball pitcher throwing a change -up in speed- not so easy to do to get it perfect - most cannot just go onto the table , from say a 9 footer or a slow er7 footer and make the adjustment immediately- takes time and practice and the correctly adjusted stroke
Rail speed is not consistent.So your inability to adjust to rail speed is the tables fault .. got it.
Side pockets are poorly designed.
Why do the boxes play so different then their bigger tables?
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I mean this as respectfully as I can: "Git Gud."
If you can't play on a Diamond, you need to work on your game. There's nothing wrong with the tables. Blaming equipment is actively holding your game back. Improvise, overcome, adapt. Pool players who rely on excuses will never reach their top level.
Make sure the rail bolts are properly torqued to 15 ft/lbs.
Again, I mean this respectfully, but past a certain point, this game is like 90% mental. By hating on a table you are actively sabotaging your game. Do you think Mosconi always had perfect conditions when he went around running 100s all over the country in exhibitions?
You make great points. I played in a trnmnt on tables I don't like at all.
Well the point about the torque isn't practical - they aren't my tables.
So your telling me someone took your lunch money
Got it
I am not afraid to go 2/3/4/5/6 rails for position, why is it the tables play way short when doing this?
Cut a ball thin and you can't hold the cueball. Can't go up and back because there are balls in the way so I decide to go around and I am 4 to 6 feet short? The same shot on a Valley or any 9 footer and I get there.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Likely you're hitting it too hard. Shooting harder shortens the rebound on any table. It's honestly more about speed than spin, but the two are intertwined. Unless something else is needed use a naturally rolling CB or a tip of high. You can adjust for "short" banking by hitting softer, moving your aim point or as a last resort hold up english. I've often heard players think they know about "running english" and use it on everything, but to be honest I've found the use of running english to be a huge detriment for 1 or 2 rail kicks or shape. 3 rail you pretty much need it. On 1 or 2 rail kicks running english is tightening/shortening the rebound angle. It's a subtle difference, but try some kicks without english and really observe what's going on. There's probably resources out there on running english. I studied it over a decade ago so I don't remember the specifics, it's kind of went subconscious at this point.
A lot of older tables, especially valleys almost needed running english but it's an added variable. It's detrimental to your game if you use it by default. English massively complicates 1 and 2 rail kicks so it should ONLY be used when needed. Without english you can readily adapt to table conditions on a subconscious level. You don't have to waste brain power on it as long as you observe. Kicking in shots becomes easier, hitting a certain part ot the OB to make it or play safe becomes easier. We all love spinning the balls with english but during kicks isn't the time for that. It adds rail friciton differences, cleanliness, etc into an already exacting shot. Sometimes it's needed but a little goes a loooong way.
I get your frustration, but they are different tables. It's like getting into a different car and pulling up to the curb or parallel parking, until you get used to the new car you have to be a bit careful. Eventually it's old hat. Honestly I'd suggest going and playing on the diamonds with an open mind. Being upset or hating them won't do any good, but instead try to learn them. It's a new challenge, and can be a fun experience with the right mindset. Once you get onto the table it will pay in dividends in the future when you need to play on a similar table.
EDIT: I'm talking more about kick shots in the "banking short" advice. But a kick shot is quicker to learn how the rails react. Banking will become much easier if you learn how a table kicks since it's using the CB and not multiple balls. The same stuff applies between a bank shot and a kick shot, just with a bank you're dealing with an extra ball.
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Here is what I did.
Watch the Harbor Freight (sucky store) sale flyer for their 1/4" drive torque wrench to go on sale for $9.99. Buy a piece of Taom chalk (sucky chalk). Keep the wrench in your pocket when playing.
Drop the chalk on the floor and it will roll under the middle of the table.
You will need to slither under the Diamond (sucky table) to retrieve it and while you are under there re-torque the rail bolts.
Pro tip...set the torque to 15 ft pounds (180 inch pounds) before hand.
Watch the Harbor Freight (sucky store) sale flyer for their 1/4" drive torque wrench to go on sale for $9.99. Buy a piece of Taom chalk (sucky chalk). Keep the wrench in your pocket when playing.
Drop the chalk on the floor and it will roll under the middle of the table.
You will need to slither under the Diamond (sucky table) to retrieve it and while you are under there re-torque the rail bolts.
Pro tip...set the torque to 15 ft pounds (180 inch pounds) before hand.
If you can next time take a video of the shot so we can get a view of what your talking about
I don’t know how or what kind of shot you’d need 4 rails or more or 6ft for on any bar table
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Great Point! I'll tell a little story about Mosconi, since you mentioned it, I forget the year, but it was about 5 years or so before Mosconi passed. He was at one of the larger billiard tournaments/ pool exhibits, I think he was going to be honored and was going to do a brief exhibition. I happened to be in the room area of the venue early in the morning where a table was set up. So there was Mosconi, and he was just hitting the cue ball over and over around the table gauging table speed and rail response. All by himself, we talked briefly, he was a man of few words. He was very clear that every table played different and he always paid closest attention to table speed and rail response before playing. Something that I will never forget, and how true it is!