4.5" :thumbup:
Diamond Pool Tables - Degree of Difficulty
- Thread starter mikemosconi
- Start date
4.5" :thumbup:
I agree with the concept of what you are saying here.
However, I think it is actually not the English; players should be able to use pockets to get position. When the pockets are overly tight, one is forced to use English they would/should not normally need when playing the game.
Simply hard to beat a 4.5" pocket
I once took mine to 4.25, it was a fun as a challenge but took visitors bit to dial in. However, caught myself using English that I would have never previously needed... the 4.25 didn't not last long.
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I agree with you that players should be able to use different segments of the pocket for position play. I think using center ball is the nuts. But I also think that that only goes so far. Once you get into the rails you need to be able to use english too.
Lou Figueroa
this I believe
IMO, the diamond "pro-cut" pockets and blue label rails result in a table that is a good compromise for all pool games from one-pocket to straight pool for anyone that is interested in competitive pool. However, that doesn't describe all Diamond tables, nor does it describe all pool players, and even then, not everyone is willing to compromise. I think 8-ball is best on a bar box, straight pool is best on a loose gold crown with slower cloth, rotation games are okay on any table with faster cloth, and one pocket is best on a pro-cut diamond or shimmed gold crown, but I only have room for one table at home, so it's a pro-cut, blue label diamond.
As for the complaints about the pockets, they may seem very unforgiving if you're used to being able to graze the rail a couple diamonds away and still make a ball, but they accept anything hit directly between the points of the pocket at any speed, so I don't think there's anything wrong with them. It just takes some getting used to. All tables play tougher as the cloth gets some wear and if the room is humid, so take that into consideration if you've just moved to a new location/pool hall.
As for the complaints about the pockets, they may seem very unforgiving if you're used to being able to graze the rail a couple diamonds away and still make a ball, but they accept anything hit directly between the points of the pocket at any speed, so I don't think there's anything wrong with them. It just takes some getting used to. All tables play tougher as the cloth gets some wear and if the room is humid, so take that into consideration if you've just moved to a new location/pool hall.
I agree. Blue-label Diamonds are probably the best all-around table. Tight but not too tight and they bank true.
Johnnybgood
Banned
How do you define true when all previous competition tables banked wider? Is there an exact measurement as to how a table “should” bank? Especially since the last hundred years every table banked differently from the diamond. Seems to me this would mean diamonds bank wrong or different not the other way around.
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Johnnybgood
Banned
No truer statement has been made! A tighter table favors a slower/softer hitting player. Therefore removes the stroke from the game and slows it down. Translation=boring and no longer a true game. Stroke and cue ball movement is part of the game and should be embraced as such. Anything less IMO is not acceptable.
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I don't see any difference between GC's and blue-label Diamonds. The only table i've played on that seemed "weird" were the red-label Diamonds. They all banked short. Easily fixed but out-of-the-box they banked short.
Johnnybgood
Banned
I don’t believe that they bank the same. But, I respect your opinion.
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They don't.
Two different cushions. Superspeed and Artemis.
Superspeed bank better as the cloth wears.
Artemis , imo, no.
That's pretty much exactly what Ray Martin told me at the end of a 14.1 lesson I had with him a few years ago, when I asked him what sized pocket tables I should practice my 14.1 on - 4.75, 4.5 or 4.25 corners pockets - all tables which we have in our room. Without hesitation he said the 4.75 pockets.
According to Ray and it makes sense - any tighter than that really changes the game and removes and at the very least severely limits many of the enjoyable and valuable aspects of 14.1 play - playing a ball out of the pack, playing a carom or combo, cheating the pocket for CB shape or if it's the only way to pocket a ball, attempting a tough angle break shot, and this list goes on and on.
I have a similar feeling.
Every shot you've EVER seen in your ENTIRE life I've missed....at least twice.
I haven't played on any two tables that bank the same. Even the same table banks differently depending on the conditions, so it's difficult to say what a "true" bank is. Rails that bank at a mirror angle at a particular speed, with a rolling cue ball, and no english using a particular cloth that has a particular amount of wear at a specific relative humidity and temperature will bank differently as soon as you change any of those variables.
The red label Diamond tables all banked noticeably shorter than Gold Crowns, enough so that Diamond decided it was worth changing the rail profile to produce a more similar response. You still have to make adjustments, but now it's close enough that the bank angles on a Diamond don't come a complete surprise to players that have spent most of their time on a Gold Crown.
Johnnybgood
Banned
Matt, that final sentence says it all. That’s the point I was making noticeable to a Gold Crown which is and was the standard. It’s really doesn’t matter much to me. My table is a GC. Where I play they have GC’s. Most other places I visit have GC’s.
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The last I brought up ghost scores a couple members on here got their panties in a bunch and ask why I was throwing ghost challenge numbers around.
I would hate to make someone feel like a lesser player by telling the truth so I will just say:
That was my opinion.
Btw, be careful about ghost talk on here. There are some that can't play dead and they get hurt quick.
Your not one of them, for the record.
The Blue Label Diamond does not bank the same as a GC — it is still shorter than a GC.
I know this because just a few years ago at the DCC Chris Gentile made a five-railer on me to win the match that you can’t even get started on a GC.
Lou Figueroa
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I wonder if a new Diamond table is in the works? I don't believe they made any performance changes to them since the blue label in 2011 or whenever that was. And I don't believe any aesthetic changes have been made since about 2000.
Brunswick refreshes the GC every 10 or 15 years.
Brunswick refreshes the GC every 10 or 15 years.
No pros mentioned by name. I suspect it was only Sullivan and maybe his buddies. Any B player or above that played a single rack on an early Diamond would have known they were wrong. It took them 30 years to fix most of the issues, and they are still not all the way there, IMO.
Diamond marketing text below from their site:
In 1987, a group of dedicated pool players in Louisville, Kentucky formed a small company based on a simple but unique idea creating a table that would so surpass all others in quality and craftsmanship that it would become the standard for national and international tournament play. Achieving that goal had three strategic elements: (1) using the table in major tournament events, (2) seeking comments and advice from experienced, top professionals about the table’s ‘playability’, and, (3) heeding those comments by adding features and making refinements that improved its performance. For example, various specifications which determine the degree of difficulty or ‘tightness’ of the pockets, such as the ‘cut angle’ and pocket size, were continuously changed to find just the ‘right’ configuration. Other features were refined in the same way.
I'll go further. All the pro tournaments today are on Diamond pro cut pockets (4.5"). What is usually the BIGGEST package for a major like the US Open, for the entire event? Maybe a 4 pack if 10 ball, and a 5 pack if nine ball? And if so, maybe only one single player got numbers that high. The idea that 4.5" pro cut pockets are too easy for pros is ridiculous.
Tight pockets are only a gambling tactic, for a player who thinks he's smarter than another one. In reality, they make zero difference to the gambling outcome. They might affect the shot selection slightly, but the better player will still win on 5" GC buckets, or 4.5" Diamond pro cut, or some dumb ass 4.0" modified one pocket table.