Diamonds "Blue" 7' are ping pong machines!

[iusedtoberich]

Funny, it's been my experience that no 2 GCs play the same, as they all play different....maybe it has something to do with how each room cleans and takes care of their equipment! All tables can change in how they play from one location to the next, as well as who works on them! If you feel so strongly about Diamond putting out such a bad product, why don't you offer your services to them and design a better playing table, shouldn't be a problem for someone as knowledgeable as you are!

Believe it or not, I'm actually a Diamond customer. I go to their DCC event often. I play on their tables there in the tournament, and in gambling matches. I own their ball cleaner. I bought Cyclop balls from them. I visit pool rooms that have Diamond tables all over the country, and give my business to those rooms.

Anytime someone doesn't like the way a Diamond table plays, you insult them. You have a close ear of the Diamond folk, obviously. I'd be willing to bet, that if they ask you what people think of the play, you say something like: "Most people love them, except a few a-holes on AZ that complain about their rails".

I met Sulliven and Smith at the DCC, and asked why the rails bounce so much maybe 5 years ago, and they said it is now fixed with the Blue label (that Sulliven gave you credit for).

I disagree it is fixed.

If people like me did not complain for a decade all through the 2000's, there would not even be a need to change from the Red to the Blue. If people like me did not complain for a decade Diamond would have never improved the pockets so they don't scuff the balls.

Of course the GC's don't all play the exact same. But, there is an average level of play, and some tables will bounce slightly less or slightly more than this average. On the GC, this average bounce level lets arbitrarily call a 5 on a 1-10 scale. And it may deviate plus/minus 1, for a range of 4-6. On a Diamond, this ball bounce average is much higher, maybe an 8. And it may deviate from 7-9.

My job as a customer is not to provide a solution. My job is to complain of a problem. It is the company's job to come up with a solution, or decide one is not necessary.

Believe it or not, I don't only complain. My home room just had all 20 of their GC's recovered this week. I went up to the table mechanic, and said: "Thank you for your good work recovering the tables, and keeping the tables the best in the area for years. I know pool players only complain about tables, and I wanted you to hear a compliment for a change." He was very appreciative.

 

[realkingcobra]

Diamond uses 2 different cushions because the cost of the Artemis cushions in cost prohibitive to use on the 7ft tables, as Artemis cushions are about 8x the cost. Then the stupid thing is, a lot of table mechanics put exactly the same cushion rubber on GCs that Diamond installs on their 7fts, then those u knowing play on the GCs, and sit back and say....now that's how the Diamond 7fts should play, like GC!....how dumb is that! People fail to understand that first of all, a Diamond is NEVER going to play like a Valley, unless you loosen all the rail bolts, second, the difference between a GC and a Diamond 7ft is the playing surface, it's a lot smaller on a 7ft, therefore if you don't adjust your stroke, your cue ball is going to be all over the place because you have less room to move it around in, the cushions are closer, which means the same stroke on a 9ft to get position on the next shot is going to be to far on a 7ft! If you play position off a GC rail to get your cue ball out to the center of the table, then expect that SAME stroke to land you in the middle of a 7ft Diamond, and you over shoot the shot...what did you expect, the table to adjust the speed of the roll FOR YOU! It's always the same people here on AZ that complain about every little thing there is to complain about, yet 10's of thousands of people play on Diamonds every day of the week and they're NOT complaining, how come? Are they ALL better players than the complainers here on AZB? 2 choices the way I see it, either adjust, or stop playing, but please quit crying like a baby!, when so many thousands of players aren't crying about Diamond 7fts!

 

[dr_dave]

Believe it or not, I'm actually a Diamond customer. I go to their DCC event often. I play on their tables there in the tournament, and in gambling matches. I own their ball cleaner. I bought Cyclop balls from them. I visit pool rooms that have Diamond tables all over the country, and give my business to those rooms.

Anytime someone doesn't like the way a Diamond table plays, you insult them. You have a close ear of the Diamond folk, obviously. I'd be willing to bet, that if they ask you what people think of the play, you say something like: "Most people love them, except a few a-holes on AZ that complain about their rails".

I met Sulliven and Smith at the DCC, and asked why the rails bounce so much maybe 5 years ago, and they said it is now fixed with the Blue label (that Sulliven gave you credit for).

I disagree it is fixed.

If people like me did not complain for a decade all through the 2000's, there would not even be a need to change from the Red to the Blue. If people like me did not complain for a decade Diamond would have never improved the pockets so they don't scuff the balls.

Of course the GC's don't all play the exact same. But, there is an average level of play, and some tables will bounce slightly less or slightly more than this average. On the GC, this average bounce level lets arbitrarily call a 5 on a 1-10 scale. And it may deviate plus/minus 1, for a range of 4-6. On a Diamond, this ball bounce average is much higher, maybe an 8. And it may deviate from 7-9.

My job as a customer is not to provide a solution. My job is to complain of a problem. It is the company's job to come up with a solution, or decide one is not necessary.

Believe it or not, I don't only complain. My home room just had all 20 of their GC's recovered this week. I went up to the table mechanic, and said: "Thank you for your good work recovering the tables, and keeping the tables the best in the area for years. I know pool players only complain about tables, and I wanted you to hear a compliment for a change." He was very appreciative.

Excellent post!

I was also shocked the first time I played on 7' Diamond tables and the 9' Red-label Diamond tables. I haven't played on 9' Blue labels yet to see it they are as improved as people claim. All I know is that the 7' and 9' Red-label tables not only play fast (which I don't mind too much) ... they also play incredibly short ... so short that all standard kick and bank shot aiming systems (that work fairly well on pretty much all non-Diamond pool tables) are basically useless on 7' and 9' Red tables! To me this is a much worse problem than the "pinball" speed effect. All tables play a little differently, and kick and bank systems do required small adjustments based on conditions, but the amount of adjustment required on 7' and 9' Red Diamonds is off the charts and unacceptable, IMO.

Regards,
Dave (another "customer" willing to provide important feedback)

 

[realkingcobra]

Excellent post!

I was also shocked the first time I played on 7' Diamond tables and the 9' Red-label Diamond tables. I haven't played on 9' Blue labels yet to see it they are as improved as people claim. All I know is that the 7' and 9' Red-label tables not only play fast (which I don't mind too much) ... they also play incredibly short ... so short that all standard kick and bank shot aiming systems (that work fairly well on pretty much all non-Diamond pool tables) are basically useless on 7' and 9' Red tables! To me this is a much worse problem than the "pinball" speed effect. All tables play a little differently, and kick and bank systems do required small adjustments based on conditions, but the amount of adjustment required on 7' and 9' Red Diamonds is off the charts and unacceptable, IMO.

Regards,
Dave (another "customer" willing to provide important feedback)

And I agree with you, which is why a change in design was done in October 2010 in order to improve the playability. The only thing that's unfair is that pool room conditions which effect the way ALL tables play, only get complained about publicly....if they have Diamond tables, nobody gives a shit about how bad the other tables play, the rest no one to complain to! Humidity effects the play of ALL tables, in ALL pool rooms, but when it effects the Diamond tables...it's Diamonds FAULT?

 

[iusedtoberich]

And I agree with you, which is why a change in design was done in October 2010 in order to improve the playability. The only thing that's unfair is that pool room conditions which effect the way ALL tables play, only get complained about publicly....if they have Diamond tables, nobody gives a shit about how bad the other tables play, the rest no one to complain to! Humidity effects the play of ALL tables, in ALL pool rooms, but when it effects the Diamond tables...it's Diamonds FAULT?

The one room in NJ that had the mix of blue and red diamonds also had about 10 GC's. I did not play on the GC's, but I will go back and do so, and report my findings. It might be a few months though, as I'm heading back to my home in Atlanta. The rooms I visited were while visiting family in PA.

 

[dr_dave]

And I agree with you, which is why a change in design was done in October 2010 in order to improve the playability. The only thing that's unfair is that pool room conditions which effect the way ALL tables play, only get complained about publicly....if they have Diamond tables, nobody gives a shit about how bad the other tables play, the rest no one to complain to! Humidity effects the play of ALL tables, in ALL pool rooms, but when it effects the Diamond tables...it's Diamonds FAULT?

Glen,

Adjustments are most definitely required on all tables, based on cloth, cushion, and environmental conditions, but I think you are missing the point here.

Under typical conditions, pretty much all non-Diamond pool tables play "on system" fairly well (i.e., kicks and banks go where you expect them to), with only small adjustments needed at times. However, 7' and 9' Red-label Diamond tables under similar conditions play "off the charts" short ... too short to apply standard "diamond" systems without major adjustments!

Thanks,
Dave

 

[realkingcobra]

I played in yet a third room last night that had 3 Diamond bar boxes this time. 2 Reds, 1 Blue. It was in PA.

I first had a match on the Blue. Immediately, I noticed it played much better. Much less bounce in the rails than the BLUE from the prior night in NJ. My second match was on the Red in this room. This one was the same as the prior night pinball machine.

So now, I played on 10 Diamond BB in 2 states in the past 3 nights.

Room 1 in NJ had 7 BB (I played a tournament here, and played all night on every single table). 3 were red, 4 were blue. All seven played exactly the same to me and like a pinball machine.

Room 2 in PA had one red. It played like a pinball machine.

Room 3 in PA had 1 Blue, 2 Reds. The blue played way better than the blues in NJ. The one Red played like pinball machine. The second red I did not try.

In western Washington I've installed 12 Diamonds in the Clubhouse pool room in Kent, Wa, then another 14 Diamonds in the 15th St Bar & Grill I. Auburn, Wa. There's 5 Diamonds at Danny's Midway Pub in Marysville, Wa. Another 7 Diamonds at the 7th St, bar & grill in Spokane, WA. Just delivered 8 Diamond bar tables to the Black Diamond Billiards bar & grill in Spokane, Wa. Owner there is going to be trading in his 9 9ft GC 3s for 9 9ft Diamond ProAms soon, you can buy the trade-ins from me if you'd like, since you like them so much. The next month I'm installing 16 more Diamond 7fts in th Legacy bar & grill in Spokane, Wa. Oh, and I have to deliver and install 4 more Diamond 7fts in the Long Beach bar & grill in Long Beach, WA. Then recover the 4 Diamond at Doc's Tavern I. Ocean Park, Wa up the road from the Long Beach bar & grill.....are you kind of getting the picture yet? Why would ANY one buy pool tables based on YOUR reviews!!! Yet, no one here is complaining about how Diamond tables play!!!

 

[9andout]

"Sure plays a mean ping pong"


It helps if you are a Ping Pong Wizard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmBboqUkXAs

:grin-square: nice pull!

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen,

Adjustments are most definitely required on all tables, based on cloth, cushion, and environmental conditions, but I think you are missing the point here.

Under typical conditions, pretty much all non-Diamond pool tables play "on system" fairly well (i.e., kicks and banks go where you expect them to), with only small adjustments needed at times. However, 7' and 9' Red-label Diamond tables under similar conditions play "off the charts" short ... too short to apply standard "diamond" systems without major adjustments!

Thanks,
Dave

And Dave, I've never disputed that fact about the red label, but that was changed 8 years ago.

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen,

Adjustments are most definitely required on all tables, based on cloth, cushion, and environmental conditions, but I think you are missing the point here.

Under typical conditions, pretty much all non-Diamond pool tables play "on system" fairly well (i.e., kicks and banks go where you expect them to), with only small adjustments needed at times. However, 7' and 9' Red-label Diamond tables under similar conditions play "off the charts" short ... too short to apply standard "diamond" systems without major adjustments!

Thanks,
Dave

Brunswick's GC1 compared to all the Gold Crowns built from the 3s and newer, was the worst GC ever built, but is Brunswick judged today by the GC1 standards of way back then? And anyone who would still say to this day the GC1 was the best built Brunswick table ever, can answer this question...if it was the best, then why did Brunswick drop its design, and improve the table so drastically.

 

[measureman]

If you treat pool like golf theres no problem.
All golf courses are different.
Just adjust to the table.
I have no problem with different playing tables.
A couple of racks and I'm good.
Now do i like the way some tables play? Nope I dont.
The Marine Corps taught me to improvise,adapt,overcome.

 

[realkingcobra]

Excellent post!

I was also shocked the first time I played on 7' Diamond tables and the 9' Red-label Diamond tables. I haven't played on 9' Blue labels yet to see it they are as improved as people claim. All I know is that the 7' and 9' Red-label tables not only play fast (which I don't mind too much) ... they also play incredibly short ... so short that all standard kick and bank shot aiming systems (that work fairly well on pretty much all non-Diamond pool tables) are basically useless on 7' and 9' Red tables! To me this is a much worse problem than the "pinball" speed effect. All tables play a little differently, and kick and bank systems do required small adjustments based on conditions, but the amount of adjustment required on 7' and 9' Red Diamonds is off the charts and unacceptable, IMO.

Regards,
Dave (another "customer" willing to provide important feedback)

I'll tell you a little unknown secret, today, it's basicly impossible to build a pool table, by ANY manufacturer, that can pass ALL the roll and cushion playability of the worsted woolen cloths being marketed today, you can take that to the bank! When a ball rolls off, because of cloth tracking, the TABLE is always at fault, and even worse if Diamond built the table, why is that? Could it be because players today are better complainers than they are players? Could it be because players would rather blame the tables for their inabilities to adjust to the playing conditions? And if the market went back to a woven wool cloth, would the players then complain that the tables are to slow, because they never developed the stroke to play on a table that wouldn't allow them to pity pat the balls around!!!

 

[dr_dave]

And Dave, I've never disputed that fact about the red label, but that was changed 8 years ago.

So if I do some tests on new (Blue label) 7' or 9' Diamonds, the tables won't bank short? I plan to do a bunch of tests soon on all the Diamonds I can find locally and in Denver (new and old). If they play short like most Diamonds I've seen, I will try to come up with modifications to the standard kicking and banking systems that will allow the modified systems to work on "Diamonds that play short."

Regards,
Dave

PS: Obviously, small adjustments will be required, even with the modified systems, to account for variable conditions.

 

[realkingcobra]

So if I do some tests on new (Blue label) 7' or 9' Diamonds, the tables won't bank short? I plan to do a bunch of tests soon on all the Diamonds I can find locally and in Denver (new and old). If they play short like most Diamonds I've seen, I will try to come up with modifications to the standard kicking and banking systems that will allow them to work on "Diamonds that play short."

Regards,
Dave

Tables should play long to begin with, when the cloth is new. Keep in mind that as cloth wears it builds up friction. At a certain point, the cushions will play dead on, but then as dirt and ball polisher wax build up, the friction increases, and the rails start shortening up. As the cloth on the nose of the cushions get worn thinner, the cushions increase friction even more. Ever seen what happens when you bounce a ball off a rail with no cloth covering the nose of the cushion? As cloth wears thinner and thinner, you're getting closer to that situation. But yes, you'll see a big difference between a red and blue label, enough to notice the difference.

 

[realkingcobra]

So if I do some tests on new (Blue label) 7' or 9' Diamonds, the tables won't bank short? I plan to do a bunch of tests soon on all the Diamonds I can find locally and in Denver (new and old). If they play short like most Diamonds I've seen, I will try to come up with modifications to the standard kicking and banking systems that will allow the modified systems to work on "Diamonds that play short."

Regards,
Dave

PS: Obviously, small adjustments will be required, even with the modified systems, to account for variable conditions.

And Dave, different cloths, different playing conditions. Age of cloth is very important too, this is how a table plays new, same table 3 months later, 6 months, 1 year! This room cleans their tables, that room don't. This room runs their air conditioning, that room don't! Clean balls, dirty balls. All of these changes are called adjusting ones game and stroke to play the conditions, good luck road mapping that one....LOL

 

[dr_dave]

Tables should play long to begin with, when the cloth is new. Keep in mind that as cloth wears it builds up friction. At a certain point, the cushions will play dead on, but then as dirt and ball polisher wax build up, the friction increases, and the rails start shortening up. As the cloth on the nose of the cushions get worn thinner, the cushions increase friction even more. Ever seen what happens when you bounce a ball off a rail with no cloth covering the nose of the cushion? As cloth wears thinner and thinner, you're getting closer to that situation. But yes, you'll see a big difference between a red and blue label, enough to notice the difference.

Again, I fully understand the effects of conditions, and I know that a brand new cloth plays longer than worn-in cloth. But the question I want to answer is: Under typical pool-hall conditions (with used, worn-in cloth ... not brand new), will new 7' and 9' Diamond tables (Blue label) play shorter than tables of other brands with similar cloth (same brand, age, cleanliness, etc.) and environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, etc.)?

Or, with brand new conditions, will a new Diamond table play shorter than typical tables of other brands with the same cloth installed the same way and under the same conditions?

Regards,
Dave

 

[realkingcobra]

Again, I fully understand the effects of conditions, and I know that brand new cloth plays longer than worn-in cloth. But the question I want to answer is: Under typical pool-hall conditions (with used, worn-in cloth ... not brand new), will new 7' and 9' Diamond tables (Blue label) play shorter than tables of other brands with similar cloth (same brand, age, cleanliness, etc.) and environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, etc.)?

Regards,
Dave

That all depends, are all the tables you test going to have accufast cushions on them? Or Brunswick super speed? Or how about Artemis cushions? Has someone replaced the cushions on the GCs you're going to test, if so, what cushions are on the table now. GCs vary in play from one to the next, so if that be the case, how does that equate? Denver has thinner air because of its altitude, therefore far less humidity than say Houston, TX, so how will your findings in Denver help a person to adjust their banks in Houston, TX? What if it just dumped 6" of rain in Houston, TX how will that compare to the conditions in Denver? If you did all the testing you wanted to do know ONE table in Denver, compiled all your information, then moved that very same pool table to New Orleans, LA....how would all your tests do against the same table in Denver?

 

[franko]

Agree

Diamond uses 2 different cushions because the cost of the Artemis cushions in cost prohibitive to use on the 7ft tables, as Artemis cushions are about 8x the cost. Then the stupid thing is, a lot of table mechanics put exactly the same cushion rubber on GCs that Diamond installs on their 7fts, then those u knowing play on the GCs, and sit back and say....now that's how the Diamond 7fts should play, like GC!....how dumb is that! People fail to understand that first of all, a Diamond is NEVER going to play like a Valley, unless you loosen all the rail bolts, second, the difference between a GC and a Diamond 7ft is the playing surface, it's a lot smaller on a 7ft, therefore if you don't adjust your stroke, your cue ball is going to be all over the place because you have less room to move it around in, the cushions are closer, which means the same stroke on a 9ft to get position on the next shot is going to be to far on a 7ft! If you play position off a GC rail to get your cue ball out to the center of the table, then expect that SAME stroke to land you in the middle of a 7ft Diamond, and you over shoot the shot...what did you expect, the table to adjust the speed of the roll FOR YOU! It's always the same people here on AZ that complain about every little thing there is to complain about, yet 10's of thousands of people play on Diamonds every day of the week and they're NOT complaining, how come? Are they ALL better players than the complainers here on AZB? 2 choices the way I see it, either adjust, or stop playing, but please quit crying like a baby!, when so many thousands of players aren't crying about Diamond 7fts!

Amen . It is funny here on AZ there is always criticism of those that choose a expensive cue over a cheaper cue. The constant rant is " it's not the arrow but the Indian " then the same group has a bad day on a Diamond table and it's not the Indian anymore but arrow? The better the player the faster they adjust to the conditions.

 

[jalapus logan]

Again, I fully understand the effects of conditions, and I know that a brand new cloth plays longer than worn-in cloth. But the question I want to answer is: Under typical pool-hall conditions (with used, worn-in cloth ... not brand new), will new 7' and 9' Diamond tables (Blue label) play shorter than tables of other brands with similar cloth (same brand, age, cleanliness, etc.) and environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, etc.)?

Or, with brand new conditions, will a new Diamond table play shorter than typical tables of other brands with the same cloth installed the same way and under the same conditions?

Regards,
Dave

Please do the tests. Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks!!!