Discussing CTE with Stan Shuffett

[Dan White]

I came into this multi-decade argument a few months ago after having learned basic CTE from Hal years ago. Too many things didn't make sense to me so I moved on. More recently I began reading about it again, trying it out on the table and watching Stan's YouTube videos. I figured maybe I'll give it another chance and see if there is really something to it. Who couldn't use a good system for multi-rail banks, after all?

I quickly found two problems. 1. There is so much bad blood in these forums that nobody trusts the motives of anybody else. This makes it hard for debaters and new people alike to take anything positive from the discussion. I fully expect the same to happen with this post, and frankly would be shocked if it didn't. 2. There is simply one step in the CTE Pro1 process that is the source of the endless debate. Supporters say that you just have to go to the table and keep trying it, and skeptics say that the step in question is so vague that they don't even know how to practice it. With that said, I'd like to make one more attempt at furthering my understanding of what I might call the "mystery step:"

I've posted this link many times:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5321812&postcount=1615

Stan finally saw the question and posted this in the Million Views Thread (now closed):

Perhaps this can help and provide additional direction.
You must have the mindset that CTE is a pro system. No doubt, you are a strong enough to know how to get down on any of the 5 shots in a conventional manner. So, take this perspective.

Use the CBE to OBA as your starting point perspective and fall into your stance with CB edge to A as your aiming solution....just like you probably always have

Here's where it gets a little different and visually odd......(at least for a spell).....as you are moving into your traditional vision behind CCB......hold it....don't do it.... Move your vision to the inside of CCB so you can sight the 15 degree perception sight point as described in one of my YouTube videos.....See that perfectly and then pivot to CCB....you will never view it perfectly in a direct 2d.....but sighting is a different matter.

CTE is close to what you are already doing.....but you must offset your vision for proper sighting.....and for ultimately arriving at the CTE relational offset....

Stan Shuffett

Since Stan took the time to reply initially, I hope he will also entertain some follow up questions.

1. This question pertains to the 5 shot perception video. You seem to be saying that I should NOT get the CTE and ETA (OBA?) visual as you recommend in the video. You are saying that I should get only the ETA visual and then thin that by looking for the 15 degree perception point as I get down on the shot to make the inside pivot. Doesn't this conflict with what you are saying in the video? Why am I doing this instead of picking up CTE and ETA at the same time?

2. Is the bold part done the same way on all 5 perception video shots the same way, or just for some shots and not others?

3. In the curtain 5 shot perception video when you get to shot 3 you say you are at about a half ball hit and then by the time you get to shot 5 you are being extremely careful to get on the shot line. You said it is getting more difficult to pick up the visuals. Why is it more difficult to pick up the visuals for one CTE/ETA shot than another?

I think an understanding of these bullet points would greatly clear things up for me. As I've said before, my current understanding of your system is this:

1. Use your experience to find the correct visual,
2. Line up to that visual,
3. As you get down on the shot, something magical happens,
4. Pivot as needed and stroke through the shot.

I'm not being wise with number 3, it is just that after all this time reading about CTE Pro1 that is all I can come away with. You responded to my very specific question about step 3, but as you can see it immediately generated three more questions.

I'm crossing my fingers that I can come to a sequence of instructions a,b,c style that will allow me to pocket all 5 balls the way you do. It is the "just a little more, just a little more" statement you make as you are lining up shot 5 that I am trying to learn, and that I think you are trying to explain above.

Thanks for any further clarification.

 

[stan shuffett]

I came into this multi-decade argument a few months ago after having learned basic CTE from Hal years ago. Too many things didn't make sense to me so I moved on. More recently I began reading about it again, trying it out on the table and watching Stan's YouTube videos. I figured maybe I'll give it another chance and see if there is really something to it. Who couldn't use a good system for multi-rail banks, after all?

I quickly found two problems. 1. There is so much bad blood in these forums that nobody trusts the motives of anybody else. This makes it hard for debaters and new people alike to take anything positive from the discussion. I fully expect the same to happen with this post, and frankly would be shocked if it didn't. 2. There is simply one step in the CTE Pro1 process that is the source of the endless debate. Supporters say that you just have to go to the table and keep trying it, and skeptics say that the step in question is so vague that they don't even know how to practice it. With that said, I'd like to make one more attempt at furthering my understanding of what I might call the "mystery step:"

I've posted this link many times:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5321812&postcount=1615

Stan finally saw the question and posted this in the Million Views Thread (now closed):

Perhaps this can help and provide additional direction.
You must have the mindset that CTE is a pro system. No doubt, you are a strong enough to know how to get down on any of the 5 shots in a conventional manner. So, take this perspective.

Use the CBE to OBA as your starting point perspective and fall into your stance with CB edge to A as your aiming solution....just like you probably always have

Here's where it gets a little different and visually odd......(at least for a spell).....as you are moving into your traditional vision behind CCB......hold it....don't do it.... Move your vision to the inside of CCB so you can sight the 15 degree perception sight point as described in one of my YouTube videos.....See that perfectly and then pivot to CCB....you will never view it perfectly in a direct 2d.....but sighting is a different matter.

CTE is close to what you are already doing.....but you must offset your vision for proper sighting.....and for ultimately arriving at the CTE relational offset....

Stan Shuffett

Since Stan took the time to reply initially, I hope he will also entertain some follow up questions.

1. This question pertains to the 5 shot perception video. You seem to be saying that I should NOT get the CTE and ETA (OBA?) visual as you recommend in the video. You are saying that I should get only the ETA visual and then thin that by looking for the 15 degree perception point as I get down on the shot to make the inside pivot. Doesn't this conflict with what you are saying in the video? Why am I doing this instead of picking up CTE and ETA at the same time?

2. Is the bold part done the same way on all 5 perception video shots the same way, or just for some shots and not others?

3. In the curtain 5 shot perception video when you get to shot 3 you say you are at about a half ball hit and then by the time you get to shot 5 you are being extremely careful to get on the shot line. You said it is getting more difficult to pick up the visuals. Why is it more difficult to pick up the visuals for one CTE/ETA shot than another?

I think an understanding of these bullet points would greatly clear things up for me. As I've said before, my current understanding of your system is this:

1. Use your experience to find the correct visual,
2. Line up to that visual,
3. As you get down on the shot, something magical happens,
4. Pivot as needed and stroke through the shot.

I'm not being wise with number 3, it is just that after all this time reading about CTE Pro1 that is all I can come away with. You responded to my very specific question about step 3, but as you can see it immediately generated three more questions.

I'm crossing my fingers that I can come to a sequence of instructions a,b,c style that will allow me to pocket all 5 balls the way you do. It is the "just a little more, just a little more" statement you make as you are lining up shot 5 that I am trying to learn, and that I think you are trying to explain above.

Thanks for any further clarification.

Honestly, I do not care for the way you presented these questions.....Furthermore, I do not care If I ever assist you again in your efforts to be negative with my work. Your track record as anti CTE goes back to RSB and I am never going to waste my instructional time with you ever again.

Stan Shuffett

 

[JB Cases]

Dan, why don't you simply call Stan? Honestly, you already know the climate here and your comments have been passive-aggressive at best.

Just pick up the phone and cut out the middlemen.

Stan is a true southern gentleman. I am sure that if you are sincere you both will come to a mutual understanding.

 

[stan shuffett]

Dan, why don't you simply call Stan? Honestly, you already know the climate here and your comments have been passive-aggressive at best.

Just pick up the phone and cut out the middlemen.

Stan is a true southern gentleman. I am sure that if you are sincere you both will come to a mutual understanding.

This half-empty glass stuff does not set well with me. I know what I am sitting on and I could care less if he gets it or not. I started my entire CTE journey with SEE CTE and WHACK IT. Never once did I get negative with Hal or lose faith in what he told me even if I could not grasp it....I worked and worked at a table.....8 years so I can pass it on.

I went to the table and I have never stopped so that I can share real CTE with anyone that is interested and yet gentlemanly respectful.

I know what CTE has meant to me.....and what it can mean to others.

I do not care whether Dan learns the real professional approach to playing. I do not care if he does not learn how to properly use his eyes. I do not care if he plays a 7 ball better....

All of these things are real world possibilities for any serious player and I have worked my butt off to get CTE out there....next is a $30G book presentation and for the most part what do I get my my efforts? A LOAD OF DISRESPECT.....

I am finished with those that are disrespectful of my work.

Stan Shuffett

 

[JB Cases]

This half-empty glass stuff does not set well with me. I know what I am sitting on and I could care less if he gets it or not. I started my entire CTE journey with SEE CTE and WHACK IT. Never once did I get negative with Hal or lose faith in what he told me even if I could not grasp it....I worked and worked at a table.....8 years so I can pass it on.

I went to the table and I have never stopped so that I can share real CTE with anyone that is interested and yet gentlemanly respectful.

I know what CTE has meant to me.....and what it can mean to others.

I do not care whether Dan learns the real professional approach to playing. I do not care if he does not learn how to properly use his eyes. I do not care if he plays a 7 ball better....

All of these things are real world possibilities for any serious player and I have worked my butt off to get CTE out there....next is a $30G book presentation and for the most part what do I get my my efforts? A LOAD OF DISRESPECT.....

I am finished with those that are disrespectful of my work.

Stan Shuffett

I totally get it. I guess I am just optimistic that somehow Dan is actually sincere about wanting to learn it.

I don't get the disrespect shown to teachers. Above all you are an educator.

Don't sweat the haters Stan. You know what you have. We know what you have.

You're not alone in getting CTE out there. Soon we won't even be here other than to post links to videos and links to qualified instructors and links to serious students willing to get on the table and work it out.

Please accept my apology for suggesting that Dan call you. I am a big believer in the power of actual conversation vs. textual interaction to work out differences.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This half-empty glass stuff does not set well with me. I know what I am sitting on and I could care less if he gets it or not. I started my entire CTE journey with SEE CTE and WHACK IT. Never once did I get negative with Hal or lose faith in what he told me even if I could not grasp it....I worked and worked at a table.....8 years so I can pass it on.

I went to the table and I have never stopped so that I can share real CTE with anyone that is interested and yet gentlemanly respectful.

I know what CTE has meant to me.....and what it can mean to others.

I do not care whether Dan learns the real professional approach to playing. I do not care if he does not learn how to properly use his eyes. I do not care if he plays a 7 ball better....

All of these things are real world possibilities for any serious player and I have worked my butt off to get CTE out there....next is a $30G book presentation and for the most part what do I get my my efforts? A LOAD OF DISRESPECT.....

I am finished with those that are disrespectful of my work.

Stan Shuffett

I LOVE THIS POST!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYUdoE4gtII

 

[stan shuffett]

I totally get it. I guess I am just optimistic that somehow Dan is actually sincere about wanting to learn it.

I don't get the disrespect shown to teachers. Above all you are an educator.

Don't sweat the haters Stan. You know what you have. We know what you have.

You're not alone in getting CTE out there. Soon we won't even be here other than to post links to videos and links to qualified instructors and links to serious students willing to get on the table and work it out.

Please accept my apology for suggesting that Dan call you. I am a big believer in the power of actual conversation vs. textual interaction to work out differences.

No problem with your post at all. I would have been happy to work with Dan and make him the same offer as I made with English for free training......but his cuts and backhand slaps have accumulated enough that I do not have time for him....

All I can say is that he is missing out on a system that is special beyond imagination.

Just imagine that every shot is like a straight-in.... That is what CCB CTE is.....every visual is unmistakable......run around the table and shoot 4 shots...no inbetweeners!!!!

I can't wait to get you finished! Your play is going to drastically improve!

Stan Shuffett

 

[cookie man]

This half-empty glass stuff does not set well with me. I know what I am sitting on and I could care less if he gets it or not. I started my entire CTE journey with SEE CTE and WHACK IT. Never once did I get negative with Hal or lose faith in what he told me even if I could not grasp it....I worked and worked at a table.....8 years so I can pass it on.

I went to the table and I have never stopped so that I can share real CTE with anyone that is interested and yet gentlemanly respectful.

I know what CTE has meant to me.....and what it can mean to others.

I do not care whether Dan learns the real professional approach to playing. I do not care if he does not learn how to properly use his eyes. I do not care if he plays a 7 ball better....

All of these things are real world possibilities for any serious player and I have worked my butt off to get CTE out there....next is a $30G book presentation and for the most part what do I get my my efforts? A LOAD OF DISRESPECT.....

I am finished with those that are disrespectful of my work.

Stan Shuffett

I LOVE THIS POST!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYUdoE4gtII

100% on the money

 

[Tony_in_MD]

The load of crap you have been taking from NOBODIES who have not spent a minute on the table utilizing this method is unbelievable.

This half-empty glass stuff does not set well with me. I know what I am sitting on and I could care less if he gets it or not. I started my entire CTE journey with SEE CTE and WHACK IT. Never once did I get negative with Hal or lose faith in what he told me even if I could not grasp it....I worked and worked at a table.....8 years so I can pass it on.

I went to the table and I have never stopped so that I can share real CTE with anyone that is interested and yet gentlemanly respectful.

I know what CTE has meant to me.....and what it can mean to others.

I do not care whether Dan learns the real professional approach to playing. I do not care if he does not learn how to properly use his eyes. I do not care if he plays a 7 ball better....

All of these things are real world possibilities for any serious player and I have worked my butt off to get CTE out there....next is a $30G book presentation and for the most part what do I get my my efforts? A LOAD OF DISRESPECT.....

I am finished with those that are disrespectful of my work.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Dan White]

Honestly, I do not care for the way you presented these questions.....Furthermore, I do not care If I ever assist you again in your efforts to be negative with my work. Your track record as anti CTE goes back to RSB and I am never going to waste my instructional time with you ever again.

Stan Shuffett

Well, that ended even more quickly than I thought! I understand your frustration. Apparently you don't understand mine. For my part, I called you essentially a lousy instructor. That was admittedly an impolite tactic but I was trying to get a response that didn't seem to be forthcoming. My logic went like this: There is one step in the CTE Pro1 process that is confusing many people, creating lots of skeptics and getting people banned from AZ Billards. It occurred to me that either you were unable to clear up the confusion or were unwilling. So that's why I said you must not be communicating your ideas very well. It didn't look like you were unwilling, yet here we are with an aiming war on our hands. If Rick had the answer to the question I posed in straight language, you'd never hear another post from him on the subject. It also seems lost on you that he and I and the other "haters" would be your most vocal supporters if we could make the system work.

I would certainly have taken a lesson with you to learn that one step, but I'm not traveling 1000 miles to find out.

Finally, if my questions came across as laced with hidden accusations they weren't meant to be. The questions are what they are and I would bet that anybody reading them would think they were reasonable things to ask. Check my posting history for the last 10 years. I don't have a history of getting into flame wars. I come to AZ (mostly the 14.1 forum) for information sharing and occasional humor.

I won't bother you with this stuff any more. It's starting to give me a headache. (RSB? Not sure what I thought about something 10 years ago before you invented your Pro1 system has to do with anything, but whatever).

 

[Dan White]

The load of crap you have been taking from NOBODIES who have not spent a minute on the table utilizing this method is unbelievable.

JB, Cookie, Spider, Tony (missed anyone?) I'm sure you are all good guys in real life. Your barbs don't sting because the person you are insulting isn't me, so I guess if it makes you feel better to do that then good for you.

I watched a little of cookie's 8 ball match. I like your pace of play and you look like you know what you are doing.

Spider, all I know about you is you used to have an avatar with yourself standing with one knee on the table.

Tony, sorry all I know about you is you live in MD.

JB, I think I'm going to miss you most of all (or was that the scarecrow?)
Lou posted a fake poster of you with about 9 photos of your shot making where your body mechanics were all over the place. I think the caption was "Got CTE?" I think that poster was the funniest thing I've seen in AZ in a long time. Hopefully you can laugh at yourself a little. You have to admit it was kind of funny. I don't think any continued video analysis is going to bear any fruit in this environment, but it was worth a shot.

Back to the pool table!

 

[Neil]

JB, Cookie, Spider, Tony (missed anyone?) I'm sure you are all good guys in real life. Your barbs don't sting because the person you are insulting isn't me, so I guess if it makes you feel better to do that then good for you.

I watched a little of cookie's 8 ball match. I like your pace of play and you look like you know what you are doing.

Spider, all I know about you is you used to have an avatar with yourself standing with one knee on the table.

Tony, sorry all I know about you is you live in MD.

JB, I think I'm going to miss you most of all (or was that the scarecrow?)
Lou posted a fake poster of you with about 9 photos of your shot making where your body mechanics were all over the place. I think the caption was "Got CTE?" I think that poster was the funniest thing I've seen in AZ in a long time. Hopefully you can laugh at yourself a little. You have to admit it was kind of funny. I don't think any continued video analysis is going to bear any fruit in this environment, but it was worth a shot.

Back to the pool table!

Dan, you asked this in this thread also. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5367018#post5367018 In post #254, I gave you something to try. Which was the second time I have asked you to try it. Both times, as far as I know, it was ignored by you, because here you are again asking the same thing.

I know that if I ask someone how to do something, I am anxiously awaiting the response. I don't ignore it or forget about it, and then go asking again and again. Doesn't really leave much question on how sincere you really are about it.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Missed the boat.

Dan, you asked this in this thread also. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5367018#post5367018 In post #254, I gave you something to try. Which was the second time I have asked you to try it. Both times, as far as I know, it was ignored by you, because here you are again asking the same thing.
I know that if I ask someone how to do something, I am anxiously awaiting the response. I don't ignore it or forget about it, and then go asking again and again. Doesn't really leave much question on how sincere you really are about it.

I think Mr. Dan White talked himself out of valuable one on one instructions from Stan Shuffett about this terrific method for playing the game. :shrug:
As for me, when I saw Stan making all those shots including banks behind that curtain I was sold on buying and learning everything I could about it.
I never saw any pool player do stuff like that. I figured "this guy is really on to something revolutionary."
It gets better every day. I will be the first to admit that learning those perceptions required a new way to approach the table and it took me about 6 months of limited practice time for it to become 'merely routine'.
Yes, I still miss shots. Yes, I still miss shots.
BUT...it isn't because I am using guesswork in aiming. It's usually due to being lazy or in a hurry. (Not following the exact procedure). Which usually takes all of 10-15 seconds before pulling the trigger.
Worth every cent and more.

 

[JB Cases]

JB, Cookie, Spider, Tony (missed anyone?) I'm sure you are all good guys in real life. Your barbs don't sting because the person you are insulting isn't me, so I guess if it makes you feel better to do that then good for you.

I watched a little of cookie's 8 ball match. I like your pace of play and you look like you know what you are doing.

Spider, all I know about you is you used to have an avatar with yourself standing with one knee on the table.

Tony, sorry all I know about you is you live in MD.

JB, I think I'm going to miss you most of all (or was that the scarecrow?)
Lou posted a fake poster of you with about 9 photos of your shot making where your body mechanics were all over the place. I think the caption was "Got CTE?" I think that poster was the funniest thing I've seen in AZ in a long time. Hopefully you can laugh at yourself a little. You have to admit it was kind of funny. I don't think any continued video analysis is going to bear any fruit in this environment, but it was worth a shot.

Back to the pool table!

Of course I can laugh at myself. I know I dogged it and my form was at that moment the worst it's been in 30 years.

I called JoeyA the day before the match and discussed just forfeiting and giving up the 3k show up money. I told him I didn't feel ready. But I still think I could have won it had I not acted like an asshole by mixing it up with a truly hated person right before the match.

So yeah I deserve the meme.

But none of it changes the fact that Stan is promoting a method that truly works. Lou wouldn't dare play Stan one pocket for anything because Stan will wipe the floor with him. Someday I might make a compilation of Lou's dogged shots during the match. He can then explain to you why he missed the shots.

The thing is that if you were honestly interested you would have already purchased the DVD and would be spending your time working through it ON THE TABLE.

You obviously play good. You have a table, you have a camera. So my only conclusion is that you don't genuinely want to learn CTE and you only seek to attempt to poke holes in it.

I am all for people who want to dissect things. Some of you seem to have the idea that I am beholden to Stan and obligated to swallow everything he says about CTE without challenge. I am not in any way obligated to him. But I do respect the amount of time he has put in. I respect the fact that everyone I know from pros on down who has spent time with him in training has nothing but good things to say and has shown improvement as players. One pro who was in a slump won the very next pro event she entered after a week with Stan.

Dissecting though entails learning all about the subject prior to taking it apart. In all these years any of you could, all of you could have learned this method as good or better than any of us. Then you could have shown any "holes", "gaps" etc... that you found, if any.

I guess I don't understand why all these smart people couldn't make a trip to see Stan and have a good round table around the table and figure it out together. Instead they prefer to continue to wage a war of words.

 

[Dan White]

Dan, you asked this in this thread also. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5367018#post5367018 In post #254, I gave you something to try. Which was the second time I have asked you to try it. Both times, as far as I know, it was ignored by you, because here you are again asking the same thing.

I know that if I ask someone how to do something, I am anxiously awaiting the response. I don't ignore it or forget about it, and then go asking again and again. Doesn't really leave much question on how sincere you really are about it.

Well I lost a day or two because you edited your post after I read it and you included all of those suggestions. I've had a busy two weeks and read these posts as I have time.

Having said that, you are right. I should at least attempt to perform what someone suggests in reply to my questions. Unfortunately I am still unable to see what you guys are seeing. If we look at Stan's 5 shots with ever increasing cut angles, I set up the ghost ball with shot 1 and my perception was somewhere around CTE and ETA (or do you say OBA?). With shot 5, of course there is a thinner cut. My perception at that point was center of cue ball to off into space, and ETB. I'm not sure if you were expecting me to see the same perception on all 5 shots. If you are able to, then you are a better man than I.

It's almost like we are both looking at a triangle and you are trying to convince me that there are 4 sides...that I just need to read more about squares and keep practicing on counting the sides. I'm not poking fun at anybody, I'm just describing what it is like for a "hater" like me to deal with this subject.

This thread was my last effort to try understanding what Stan is preaching. I think it is a lost cause. I just don't think the way you guys do, which is fine.

 

[Dan White]

Just imagine that every shot is like a straight-in.... That is what CCB CTE is.....every visual is unmistakable......run around the table and shoot 4 shots...no inbetweeners!!!!

Stan Shuffett

I aim with ghost ball, I think. Really, I just get down on the shot and I know where I need to aim. Every shot is like a straight in shot for me...no guess work... no guessing whether it is this visual or that visual. Aiming is easy. Delivering the cue is 95% of the work, and I was only able to confirm that idea this year when I finally learned how to straighten out my stroke. (Another few percentage points goes to adjusting aim when using english).

Folks, it's all about the stroke, not the aim.

 

[mohrt]

I aim with ghost ball, I think. Really, I just get down on the shot and I know where I need to aim. Every shot is like a straight in shot for me...no guess work... no guessing whether it is this visual or that visual. Aiming is easy. Delivering the cue is 95% of the work, and I was only able to confirm that idea this year when I finally learned how to straighten out my stroke. (Another few percentage points goes to adjusting aim when using english).

Folks, it's all about the stroke, not the aim.

It is equally aim and stroke, and the other nuances related to shooting balls in pockets. The pocket isn't always in our peripheral view. Banks are also tougher to gauge. IMHO using a system where CB/OB are the focus after the perception is established has its benefits.

 

[GoldenFlash]

I aim with ghost ball, I think. Really, I just get down on the shot and I know where I need to aim. Every shot is like a straight in shot for me...no guess work... no guessing whether it is this visual or that visual. Aiming is easy. Delivering the cue is 95% of the work, and I was only able to confirm that idea this year when I finally learned how to straighten out my stroke. (Another few percentage points goes to adjusting aim when using english).
Folks, it's all about the stroke, not the aim.

A few posts back you were giving out a few subtle goodbyes.
Yet, here you are again......trying to 'sell' your ideas about the same old bag.
:boring2:

 

[Dan White]

A few posts back you were giving out a few subtle goodbyes.
Yet, here you are again......trying to 'sell' your ideas about the same old bag.
:boring2:

I said what I wanted to say and then Neil reminded me of a loose end that I thought deserved a reply.

 

[8pack]

No problem with your post at all. I would have been happy to work with Dan and make him the same offer as I made with English for free training......but his cuts and backhand slaps have accumulated enough that I do not have time for him....

All I can say is that he is missing out on a system that is special beyond imagination.

Just imagine that every shot is like a straight-in.... That is what CCB CTE is.....every visual is unmistakable......run around the table and shoot 4 shots...no inbetweeners!!!!

I can't wait to get you finished! Your play is going to drastically improve!

Stan Shuffett

Many people don't see what you see and have seen your material, why is that? Run around the table and shoot 4 shots? Why isn't your system creating champion's, I think its been out long enough.