Do you think 9-ball would be better or worse if a mandatory push out after the break became a standard rule?

Taxi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just play 10ball. Call shot(no call safe) w/ the ability to combo/carom the 10b to win is way we play. I don't like call-safe or 10b last. Or just play old-school 10b with standard 9b rules. When you get to higher levels of players 9b has become kind of a joke.
Given how the vast majority of "luck shots" in 9 ball and 10 ball come from lucky safes rather than balls being slopped, what you're suggesting barely even scratches the surface of removing luck from the game. Personally I'd like to see the 10 ball, but only the 10 ball, have to called at any point during the game (i.e. no slopping the cheese), but I'd also require all safes to be called, with one called 2-way shot allowed per game. For any other miss that leaves a player's opponent snookered, the incoming player should have the option of making the first player shoot again.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't see the need to punish a player for striking a good break. Alternate break still allows the stronger player to win, and provides equal opportunity for the opponent.

Where exactly did the alternate break format fall short...?
The alternate break disrupts the tempo, mental state, and rhythm of the player who has just won the game and then now has to give up the table to his opponent. When players are in a “zone” and running racks, you bring them out of the “zone” by forcing them to sit on the bench while you use stalling tactics.
 
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pab

Center ball can do it all
Silver Member
...but oddly enough, more often than not, a push is given back to the shooter.
That is absolutely correct, but the statement reads "that the other player doesn't know what to do." At the pro level, part of their decision making is on shot percentage. Giving the shot back also falls into the category of knowing what to do (i.e. or what "not" to do).
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
The alternate break disrupts the tempo, mental state, and rhythm of the player who has just won the game and then now has to give up the table to his opponent. When players are in a “zone” and running racks, you bring them out of the “zone” by forcing them to sit on the bench while you use stalling tactics.
Very true... I will admit I do enjoy watching player string together racks. That said, I do appreciate the drama of breaking the opponent's "serve".
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...but oddly enough, more often than not, a push is given back to the shooter.
If you have paid attention to your opponent’s game enough, you will know which shots they are comfortable with and those that they are leery of.

Before I push, I know exactly what I am going to do with the shot if it is given back to me. My opponent then has to try to think of what I was thinking before I pushed. It is a mind game, when actually you should only be thinking of the table layout instead of “what would he do?”

Pushing is an art.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
That is absolutely correct, but the statement reads "that the other player doesn't know what to do." At the pro level, part of their decision making is on shot percentage. Giving the shot back also falls into the category of knowing what to do (i.e. or what "not" to do).
...or not knowing what to do. It works both ways.

I also have witnessed many returned push shots been successfully utilized to maintain table control.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
This has been tried in what was called the "Accu-stats Game Show" and it was quite enjoyable, but it was a novelty. To play this way on occasion would be OK by me, but this should never become the standard rule set.

The monumental struggles we just saw at the Mosconi should quiet the "nine ball is too easy crowd" around here for a while. Per At Large, Team USA won just 46% of the racks in which it broke. That means that if they'd been spotted the break by Europe for the entire Mosconi Cup, they still probably would have lost. Of course, part of that is due to the fact that tough equipment was used, but elite players SHOULD be competing on tough equipment with neutral rackers.

For both nine ball and ten ball, the thing that can make it too easy is "rack your own." Remove the rack mechanic issue and the pattern racking issue from these games and they are both excellent games. With rack your own and pattern racking, as Chris Melling has observed, both games are a little broken. Without them, these are great games and winner breaks could be used in all major competitions.
 

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It would not be 9-ball.

It would be a different game.

Why do people constantly want to change the rules?

It was bad enough when they switched to one foul and BIH, then people want alternate break, and now you are advocating pushing out after the break.

Let’s add push after the break and when you get to the 9 ball you have to kick it in three rails to the pocket the 8 ball was made in on the game before.
I’m not advocating it...I said I’m not sure if I like the idea or not. Some pros have advocated for it and I’m wondering what people think about it.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m not advocating it...I said I’m not sure if I like the idea or not. Some pros have advocated for it and I’m wondering what people think about it.
Pretty much everyone that I have ever seen advocate it were players that couldn’t run packages or those that didn’t break as well as their opponents.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
of course those that dont break as well or know how to rack are against it.

and for good reason as knowing the trick to breaking or racking makes that the primary skill determining who wins the match.

on tables where the corner balls dont fly in or the two above them then the game looks better. but then it becomes which table you play on determines the winner.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve seen this discussed before and I’m curious what the game would end up being like if this became normalized. I think safety breaks would become fairly standard since pushing out has you at a disadvantage. Do you think it would ruin the game? It does pretty much solve the issue everyone has with racks. No more needing to rack with the 9 on the spot, or add a break box, or require that two balls pass the headstring (a silly rule IMO), and likely less time players spend on racking or arguing about the rack, etc. I’m not sure if I’m for it though. What are your
Don’t like it – it makes the break shot completely meaningless.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Given how the vast majority of "luck shots" in 9 ball and 10 ball come from lucky safes rather than balls being slopped, what you're suggesting barely even scratches the surface of removing luck from the game. Personally I'd like to see the 10 ball, but only the 10 ball, have to called at any point during the game (i.e. no slopping the cheese), but I'd also require all safes to be called, with one called 2-way shot allowed per game. For any other miss that leaves a player's opponent snookered, the incoming player should have the option of making the first player shoot again.

i don't reall saying anything about removing luck. that's always going to be there. call shot/safe is the most boring form of pool one can play. 10b last makes it even worse.
 

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This has been tried in what was called the "Accu-stats Game Show" and it was quite enjoyable, but it was a novelty. To play this way on occasion would be OK by me, but this should never become the standard rule set.

The monumental struggles we just saw at the Mosconi should quiet the "nine ball is too easy crowd" around here for a while. Per At Large, Team USA won just 46% of the racks in which it broke. That means that if they'd been spotted the break by Europe for the entire Mosconi Cup, they still probably would have lost. Of course, part of that is due to the fact that tough equipment was used, but elite players SHOULD be competing on tough equipment with neutral rackers.

For both nine ball and ten ball, the thing that can make it too easy is "rack your own." Remove the rack mechanic issue and the pattern racking issue from these games and they are both excellent games. With rack your own and pattern racking, as Chris Melling has observed, both games are a little broken. Without them, these are great games and winner breaks could be used in all major competitions.

racking issues are fun :eek: and done :giggle:

you have that 1 setting out there, all by itself, a duck, kind of ugly,
call it, the one back in the head pocket and duck the cue ball behind a slightly broken rack.

If you didn't duck ugly and made the call, you got options, pass or play..

FatHatRack_All.jpg
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
Worst, for TV and for sponsors, if you mean for real games, we know that break shot is a luck shot, so yea maybe for gambling.

But if you want to make pool a game where audience can watch, i.e. non pool players, then if you make a pushout shot after each break, that would kill it even more than it already is, I mean it is dead right now, but it can even kill it to the point where even pool players don't watch.

How to make pool great for tv? that non-pool players watch it?

Ok, play 7ball, with a screaming audience like the Mosconi, put mics on players and let them have personalities and not be boring, I mean seriously, 7ball with every mistake a ball in hand, and you have one option of playing safe, thats how it should be.
 

surlytempo

Member
lol. Seems the worst people to ask about changes and possible improvements to pool are middling pool players themselves. They're too clouded by either tradition or personal preference.
 

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
If you have paid attention to your opponent’s game enough, you will know which shots they are comfortable with and those that they are leery of.

Before I push, I know exactly what I am going to do with the shot if it is given back to me. My opponent then has to try to think of what I was thinking before I pushed. It is a mind game, when actually you should only be thinking of the table layout instead of “what would he do?”

Pushing is an art.

st louie, louie would push out to where mortals would push out from, those crazy thin cut shots along the short rail from anywhere on the table. didn't make them all but made enough of them that you didn't want him shooting them
 

cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
Just do away with the break and throw 9 balls on the table with the cue ball. Flip a coin to see who shoots first every game.
 
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