Does anyone take pride in a league anymore

That is a great way to look at this. All crap and emotions aside...in the end, there is a business model and approach that is utilized, some to support players of varying skills, some to make a profit, and so one. So whether an operator's intention is to start a league because they have a passion for pool...they still operate under a model that appeals to them the most, supporting their goals and visions overall.

Best intentions don't always net best results I suppose. Every league offers something a bit different...catering to a specific demographic of player. Not one league is going to appeal to or be supported by everyone, and neither is one business model for running that league.
 
MAN, there's that "pyramid scheme" comment again. Talk about wildass conspiracy theories.

It's a handicapped league where one of the goals is to prevent stacked teams. That's it.
That's what keeps it fun for amateurs. You can't get a team of 8 semipros who are the best players for 50 miles,
and have them mercilessly pound everyone else in the area.

If another goal of this league is to be amateur friendly, of COURSE they have to break up teams
that are too strong. What newbie wants to join a league only to find
the same handful of guys win it every year and his team has a 0% chance (even with the handicapping system)?

I'm sure APA haters understand this concept deep down, but they want to make up some excuse
to bash it or they're butthurt about the fact that their team got broken up, so they spout this nonsense
that the 23 rule only exists to splinter teams and make money. Like Bell and Hubbard were a couple of enron types
who were looking to come up with a scam that could make them millions... please.

There was an obvious niche for an amateur pool league, which apparently didn't exist, and they filled it.
Then they came up with rules and handicapping to keep it amateur friendly because by definition it's a recreational league,
and the recreation part goes away if you allow a handful of shortstops to dominate an area and gobble up the entire prize fund.
 
DoubleD said:
The socialism/welfare part of it comes from the expectation to be rewarded for mediocrity.

Why the hell wouldn't you want to enter something where you stand no chance? If you enjoy it, why not do it? Why does anyone run against Ussein Bolt? Because they are competitors and feel the drive to do better and improve.
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Have YOU ever run against Ussein Bolt? I'm willing to bet you've run before, to catch a bus or something. There are millions of runners on this planet who have no desire to run against Ussein Bolt. They just enjoy running.


DoubleD said:
Not everybody is special. If you want a gold star or a trip to vegas you should earn it, not handicap yourself into it.

dld
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What if you just want a night out with friends, have no desire to improve, but like the competitive atmosphere? Is there something wrong with that?
 
CreeDo said:
MAN, there's that "pyramid scheme" comment again. Talk about wildass conspiracy theories.

It's a handicapped league where one of the goals is to prevent stacked teams. That's it.
That's what keeps it fun for amateurs. You can't get a team of 8 semipros who are the best players for 50 miles,
and have them mercilessly pound everyone else in the area.

If another goal of this league is to be amateur friendly, of COURSE they have to break up teams
that are too strong. What newbie wants to join a league only to find
the same handful of guys win it every year and his team has a 0% chance (even with the handicapping system)?

I'm sure APA haters understand this concept deep down, but they want to make up some excuse
to bash it or they're butthurt about the fact that their team got broken up, so they spout this nonsense
that the 23 rule only exists to splinter teams and make money. Like Bell and Hubbard were a couple of enron types
who were looking to come up with a scam that could make them millions... please.

There was an obvious niche for an amateur pool league, which apparently didn't exist, and they filled it.
Then they came up with rules and handicapping to keep it amateur friendly because by definition it's a recreational league,
and the recreation part goes away if you allow a handful of shortstops to dominate an area and gobble up the entire prize fund.
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Good post..................
I keep repeating that if you can't or won't play in a handicapped league........... it's you because you don't have enough skill for it.

Kim
 
I hereby steal Godwin's Law and state Krupa's Law: As discussions about leagues grow longer, the likelihood that someone equates handicap systems to socialism and/or welfare approaches 1.
 
APA has always been run as a business.I think it is pretty much set up so that there is a set amount that is returned to the players in prizes.I am pretty sure a LO can offer additional prizes and payouts for playing in their league.I think that most APA players are pretty happy with the league.Yes its a pyramid scheme of sorts but its not like anyone is getting ripped off,the players are enjoying the time out playing pool and having a good time. APA also works well for the bars.

There was a time when the BCA leagues were a great experience.But now it seams like most people play BCA just to qualify for regionals and nationals.These days it seams like no1 wants to play the travelling league,an in-house BCA league is so much less hassle.

There are some independent traveling and in-house leagues that are very well run with all or most of the proceeds being returned to the players.Usually these are in remote areas and the main drawback is they do not qualify you for any major tournaments.One big plus is that you can be a local hero (or villain) by winning top gun.
 
lol

CreeDo said:
I had to edit my post where I tried to guess the APA LO's annual income. It was horribly wrong.
The actual math is much simpler and the actual pay is much worse than I thought :P

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4203692&postcount=37
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Lol, I saw your post and was scratching my head as to how to came up with those monstrous numbers. I was too tired to even politely disagree with you though.. These new numbers make much more sense. Remember, there are more expenses than meets the eye here also. Gas (vehicle use and maintenance to the use of that vehicle) , Paper, Ink, Stamps, Envelopes, and whatever else particular LO's do to run their leagues, not to mention what Uncle Sam extorts from him/her....
 
whammo57 said:
Good post..................
I keep repeating that if you can't or won't play in a handicapped league........... it's you because you don't have enough skill for it.

Kim
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That may be the silliest thing i've ever read. lol I don't need a handy cap to beat the people in my league. But 99 percent of them need it to beat me. so who is unskilled. I'm not sure how anyone can feel good about beating someone when they've made 74 of the 75 balls and they won by only making 45?
 
krupa said:
I hereby steal Godwin's Law and state Krupa's Law: As discussions about leagues grow longer, the likelihood that someone equates handicap systems to socialism and/or welfare approaches 1.
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truth hurts I guess. It's people who want something without working for it handy-capp league = welfare. Let me guess... your a liberal lol
 
trob said:
That may be the silliest thing i've ever read. lol I don't need a handy cap to beat the people in my league. But 99 percent of them need it to beat me. so who is unskilled. I'm not sure how anyone can feel good about beating someone when they've made 74 of the 75 balls and they won by only making 45?
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did you read that thread about lil d and josh playing for 36,000.00 > playing a in a handicap league is no different that lil d being spotted the 8 out for 36,000.00. he is given a handicap in that race , what's the dif ?

seems like a lot of serious players spot other serious players a ball or 2 or even a few games on the wire when gambling, i see no difference between that and playing a handicap league.
 
trob said:
truth hurts I guess. It's people who want something without working for it handy-capp league = welfare. Let me guess... your a liberal lol
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Can't quite figure out if you're one person with two opinions of APA or if you're two people with different opinions. One minute it sounds like you're all good with APA, then you sound all pissy the next.

I hope that after another 8 years of playing, I don't sound like nearly as big a dingleberry towards casual players as a lot of people do on here. I'd be happy as a clam to beat Efren with a spot. Whole bunch of pro players up in this forum and all will bet to the moon if they gamble, I tell ya.
 
I play in leagues in Illinois and in Bangkok.

I've traveled with with Illinois teams to Vegas, and to Jakarta with a Bangkok team.
 

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trob said:
truth hurts I guess. It's people who want something without working for it handy-capp league = welfare. Let me guess... your a liberal lol
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No, just smart enough to recognize a fallacious argument when I hear one.
 
APA provides an environment for folks to play in a somewhat competitive situation.

Folks that may not have the time to dedicate themselves to the work and practice it would take to become "good", at least good enough that playing in a scratch league would make sense.

Folks that might not care about dedicating that much time and effort to something they enjoy a couple nights a week. Usually after they'be worked 40+ hours or more, and want to relax a little, playing a game they love.

There really shouldn't be such disdain for people who like to play, but can't or won't devote the time necessary to become a runout player. We like to play somewhat competitively, and enjoy the game, as well as each others company (for the most part, heh) and there is a league that provides that.

I fail to understand why folks feel the need to look down their noses at us, but I suppose its just human nature.
 
Most of my pool playing involves gambling.I get a spot from many of the peeps I play and even give a spot once in a while.I rarely play anyone even 1P.Some guys will say things like "if you need weight to play me you need to wait to play me"that is all fine and dandy but my response is "if you want the action (money),you will give or take a spot"

So if you want the action...With the APA or other handicapped league its a question of do you want the competition?
 
smoooothstroke said:
Most of my pool playing involves gambling.I get a spot from many of the peeps I play and even give a spot once in a while.I rarely play anyone even 1P.Some guys will say things like "if you need weight to play me you need to wait to play me"that is all fine and dandy but my response is "if you want the action (money),you will give or take a spot"

So if you want the action...With the APA or other handicapped league its a question of do you want the competition?
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That's how one of my friends does it. He'll offer a game where he gets a bigger spot than I think he should get. We'll play APA races, but he gets spots on top of that. Or, we'll play 2:1 on money, which can get moved up to 3:1 or 4:1 depending on how I'm doing. His thinking is that he's free to make any kind of offer he wants. He knows that if I want to gamble, I'll have to compromise or conceed the spot to him. It's been good practice, though, and helps to give me an idea of what kind of spots make what kind of difference. The odds spot can be a huge PitA to overcome when he's playing well. I wish most of my playing involved gambling, though. I'd say about 10% or less nowadays. I don't really go anywhere much besides the same old bar.
 
Banks said:
That's how one of my friends does it. He'll offer a game where he gets a bigger spot than I think he should get. We'll play APA races, but he gets spots on top of that. Or, we'll play 2:1 on money, which can get moved up to 3:1 or 4:1 depending on how I'm doing. His thinking is that he's free to make any kind of offer he wants. He knows that if I want to gamble, I'll have to compromise or conceed the spot to him. It's been good practice, though, and helps to give me an idea of what kind of spots make what kind of difference. The odds spot can be a huge PitA to overcome when he's playing well. I wish most of my playing involved gambling, though. I'd say about 10% or less nowadays. I don't really go anywhere much besides the same old bar.
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You should of been at Classic last time I was in Portland,I lost 3-400.

No1 would gamble with me no matter how much they were up.
 
smoooothstroke said:
You should of been at Classic last time I was in Portland,I lost 3-400.

No1 would gamble with me no matter how much they were up.
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I rarely go anywhere but the same old bar, except for league nights. Most of the time when I do bother going anywhere, nothing's happening. The last time I went to Classic's about six months ago maybe, there were three people in the place and they were watching TV. I asked where everybody was, nobody said anything(not even a 'hi' when I walked in) so I walked out and haven't been back since. If they didn't want customers, all they had to do is post a sign.

Next time you're in Portland, hit me up. I may be going up to Bellevue in a week, I'll let you know.
 
lorider said:
what are you doing in a league thread ?:grin-square:

a trip to vegas is something to shoot for if you are a low level player, most serious players just can buy their way in at the bcapl events.

as far as sandbagging goes, i have seen more obvious sandbagging in my one night a week bcapl format money league than in my 3 apa divisions. i cant think of one person in my napa league that i think may be under handicapped.
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most of the sandbagging claims occur in vegas but many can be explained by the differences in the regular leagues. Our apa leagues play on the same 9 foot olhausens with 4 and 1/2 inch pockets used for the archer classic so when we get to vegas and play on valley bar boxes with huge pockets we all play a couple balls better. Its not that we sandbag its just that those tables at the nationals are too easy.
 
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