Does Pool Need a Dominant Player to get World Wide Attention Like Other Sports?

Actually, I may not be expressing myself the way I intend because this mostly represents my views as well. I don't advocate super-tough pockets; I think that's a huge mistake, and simple physics of ball size really come into play at anything less than 4 5/8" IMO. Running an OB down the rail towards a 4" pocket becomes a low percentage shot for anyone. I like going to a slower cloth that requires a stronger stroke to move the cue ball around just as you described and as C.J. suggested. I really like the seeding idea as well.

Single elimination would allow significantly longer races thus eliminating much of the issues regarding luck winning out. This is how pro tennis and pro golf is played, to name a couple of big time match play sports. Do or die helps the drama factor.

Bowling is also match play, but only after qualifying rounds where everyone plays against the field (the USGA Amateur Championship is also played this way). I have theorized in other threads that having this sort of format in a pool event might be worth a try. For instance, everyone plays say 5-10 rounds of Fargo, Bowlliards or some similar game and the top however many get in to the match play (8/9/10 Ball or whatever). That should identify the best players that week regardless of how easy or hard the equipment is - this is essentially best out of 1,500 to 3000 possible points. The good thing about this is that seeding is not required and none of the amateurs go 2 and out. Everyone from the dead money to the world beaters get the same amount of play during qualifying. And the difficulty of the playing conditions don't become much of a factor because you are not competing directly against an opponent until match play where presumably it's all the top players left. It would be great for streaming too because if you have two players sharing a table alternating frames you could always put two monsters on the stream since there are no predetermined match ups. So as the qualifying progresses you could always put two of the leaders on the stream table. The 14.1 Challenges have a similar format where the high runs or totals in qualifying get into the match play.

As to seeding, it would certainly also help the top players make it to the end though this mainly eliminates the luck of the draw, not so much the luck inherent to the game or the conditions.

The problem with seeding is that in discussions around here it meets with stiff resistance for any event that's not all professional. Unfortunately at this point in time that is just about every tournament. I suppose in smaller field events (say 64 players) you could have seeding because you have a shot at getting 64 pros to fill the field or at least complete the field with a few hard core short stops willing to put up with the seeding. Once the field gets larger than that and the tournament is relying on dead money for a good portion of the purse, seeding might not work so well. And of course, at this point in time there is no real solid system for determining the seeds.
 
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Team Billiards in Memphis Tenn


Yeah, I was in that tournament and finished 4th....the 20 second shot clock was a really good thing, but the no safety rule was questionable.....Roger Griffis won the singles defeating Earl Strickland in the finals....this team event was kind of thrown together and Lou Butera was the coach for both teams, which was somewhat lame....also the team shirts were the same....this was the first of what was to be called WORLD TEAM BILLIARDS which had a few events then fizzled and died on the vine....Team pool evens have been tried several times, but never seem to generate any real enthusiasm....:boring:
 
Yeah, I was in that tournament and finished 4th....the 20 second shot clock was a really good thing, but the no safety rule was questionable.....Roger Griffis won the singles defeating Earl Strickland in the finals....this team event was kind of thrown together and Lou Butera was the coach for both teams, which was somewhat lame....also the team shirts were the same....this was the first of what was to be called WORLD TEAM BILLIARDS which had a few events then fizzled and died on the vine....Team pool evens have been tried several times, but never seem to generate any real enthusiasm....:boring:

I agree about the no safety thing. IN fact I agree all the way around. But this kind of match is something anyone could watch and be impressed with. Fast paced with lots of good shots(on slow cloth to showcase strokes):thumbup:. Good job on the 4th place finish though. I wish pool had the money golf has.....I get more bored watching golf than I do pool and I enjoy golf.
 
The top players will be virtually the same, but it would give someone a chance to dominate and show extraordinary skill in doing it....when you can miss by a diamond and the balls still go in this is never going to happen....and the "kicking element" is one of the most difficult things to master and it's been toned down considerably due to the jump sticks...and the magic rack....well, everyone knows that's like break and first shot. Please don't take my word for it I've heard it from every top player there is except for Shane, but he's going to do well no matter what....it also comes down to dedication, it's just a lot more satisfying to see amazing play on tough, slower equipment rather than on loose "buckets".... it's like making the basketball rim 3 ft. in diameter...it just wouldn't be that big a deal for everyone to make all their free throws...imho

This happens much less now that many tourneys are played on diamond tables with the deep shelf. I would not be in favor of a more difficult table than this. Perhaps you can try the slower cloth, but I'm skeptical that it will help to elevate the game. Give it a whirl though, what the heck. Best of luck to 'ya!
 
The 1996 MOSCONI CUP

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The Mosconi Cup is a great event...too bad we never got to defend it in 97 ;)




the Mosconi cup seems to do ok...
 
The Shelf makes the difference

This happens much less now that many tourneys are played on diamond tables with the deep shelf. I would not be in favor of a more difficult table than this. Perhaps you can try the slower cloth, but I'm skeptical that it will help to elevate the game. Give it a whirl though, what the heck. Best of luck to 'ya!

The deeper shelf is more important than pocket size to make the table more difficult....you can have a 4.75 inch pocket with a deep shelf that's MUCH tighter than one with 4.5 and a shallow shelf.....small pockets don't matter to accomplished players, but a deep shelf does to everyone.

The slower cloth just makes it where the game requires stroke shots.....that used to be an important part of the game much like the Drive playing golf....it's just been decreased dramatically..but that can be changed with ease....I think the "home version" of 860 is best for this....the commercial grade seems too fast....but I'm no cloth aficionado ;)
 
One thing many people respect about golf is they have allowed condition changes and higher tech equipment , but not at the expense of the integrity of the game.....the ball is the same size, the hole is the same size, and they use a "Stimpmeter" to measure the speed of the greens ...and they have taken strides to make the golf courses even more challenging because of the lighter shafts, better designed balls and other high tech material that improves distance. It's proven that their fans want to see the power shots and that holds true in tennis and baseball too.

What many Top Players say is make conditions tougher and give someone a chance to dominate, so this can truly be called the "Master Game".....it MUST to be MORE difficult/challenging for a pro....statistically there are a lot more great players today, but VERY FEW new ones, 70% of them were top players 15 years ago, but the thing is the tables with the fast, slick cloth, super-fast rails, high tech jump/break cues and heavier cue balls DO NOT require as much knowledge, stroke or power, and that's what separates CHAMPION level play more than anything... popular opinion indicates {demands for athletic type performance} is the most fun to watch as well....the power/shotmaking game is exciting to watch and it's virtually been eliminated ...with the faster playing conditions it's taken MANY shots out of the game and made running balls much easier....which isn't just an equalizer, but has taken away some of the most difficult and visually appealing parts of the game ... on the average pool shots are hit with 30% less force than they were back when pool was so popular in the 70s, 80s & 90s. This, in comparison it would be like golfers hitting 240 yard drives which would be far LESS exciting for the fans to watch.

To make this point as clear as possible imagine the following scenario as an EXTREME example:

Few regular athletes can compete with Michael Jordan at basketball or Tiger Woods at golf, however, if they have to play on an unusually fast substance (solid ice) MANY people would have a chance to win against them....speeding up playing surfaces is not only one of the greatest equalizers, but it has, in effect made the game incredibly boring ... Anyone that saw that great match ups of the 70's, 80's and 90's will agree that there was just a different sound and force to the shots and atmosphere because of the conditions....which was more conducive to exciting matches and more exciting, dominant, and powerful players.
We already do and it doesn't help!Most people I know
play pool as a recreation and a night out in leagues.
Compared to bigger sports in the world,pool just doesn't have the numbers
or the people that care enough to see it on a bigger scale.
When I see poker shown on multiple Sports TV shows way more than pool,
there's a serious mountain pool has to climb.
 
Because it was there...

We already do and it doesn't help!Most people I know
play pool as a recreation and a night out in leagues.
Compared to bigger sports in the world,pool just doesn't have the numbers
or the people that care enough to see it on a bigger scale.
When I see poker shown on multiple Sports TV shows way more than pool,
there's a serious mountain pool has to climb.


Yes, and I always wondered why anyone would climb a mountain....and after a lifetime of challenges, successes and failures I understand what they mean when they say about climbing Mount Everest - "BECAUSE IT WAS THERE".....pushing yourself to achieve things that don't seem possible makes life worth living ... and that's why we have the internet, airplanes, cell phones, etc.... and I'm sure glad to live in this day and age, it would suck to be on horseback or talking to you on a CB Radio
 
Because it was there...

We already do and it doesn't help!Most people I know
play pool as a recreation and a night out in leagues.
Compared to bigger sports in the world,pool just doesn't have the numbers
or the people that care enough to see it on a bigger scale.
When I see poker shown on multiple Sports TV shows way more than pool,
there's a serious mountain pool has to climb.



Yes, and I always wondered why anyone would climb a mountain....and after a lifetime of challenges, successes and failures I understand what they mean when they say about climbing Mount Everest - "BECAUSE IT WAS THERE".....pushing yourself to achieve things that don't seem possible makes life worth living ... and that's why we have the internet, airplanes, cell phones, etc.... and I'm sure glad to live in this day and age, it would suck to be on horseback or talking to you on a CB Radio. ;)
 
How do we show Non Stop Action?

I agree about the no safety thing. IN fact I agree all the way around. But this kind of match is something anyone could watch and be impressed with. Fast paced with lots of good shots(on slow cloth to showcase strokes):thumbup:. Good job on the 4th place finish though. I wish pool had the money golf has.....I get more bored watching golf than I do pool and I enjoy golf.

Yes, one thing we have to do is take out the dead time between shots....when I played all those ESPN Events in the mid 90's we were playing a two table format with the WPBA (Ladies Pros) playing beside the Men's Pros.....this was pretty good, however we still need to show JUST non stop action.....Does anyone have any idea on how to do this? I can just imagine doing it in Post Production.
 
Yes, one thing we have to do is take out the dead time between shots....when I played all those ESPN Events in the mid 90's we were playing a two table format with the WPBA (Ladies Pros) playing beside the Men's Pros.....this was pretty good, however we still need to show JUST non stop action.....Does anyone have any idea on how to do this? I can just imagine doing it in Post Production.

you don't need post production if it's not live it will fail IMO

you build a game for the purpose.. say 5 man teams... cameras on all 5 tables all games played at the same time

variation of 10 ball alternate break each player breaks exactly 5 times.

game is scored by points instead of racks..

a simple cut shot is worth 1 point.. each contact after the first is an additional point so...

a bank shot is 2 points... a kick shot (any number of rails) is 2 points.... a 2 ball combination is 2 points... a 3 ball combination is 3 points.. kick into a 3 ball combination for 4 points... ect...

so as the match progresses the losing team is forced to start taking flyers.. if you are really down in points you'll need to invent outrageous shots to try and make up lost ground..

you show both teams score as a running total for all players on all tables.. the commentators switch between all the tables showing the most interesting shots

all shots must be called with bar room detail as a nod to the fans AND as a vehicle to let the comentaters know when a cool attempt is about to be made

base the teams by city to give a local rooting factor..

I've mentioned this a couple of times on this site already... but it never gets any traction
 
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you don't need post production if it's not live it will fail IMO

you build a game for the purpose.. say 5 man teams... cameras on all 5 tables all games played at the same time

variation of 10 ball alternate break each player breaks exactly 5 times.

game is scored by points instead of racks..

a simple cut shot is worth 1 point.. each contact after the first is an additional point so...

a bank shot is 2 points... a kick shot (any number of rails) is 2 points.... a 2 ball combination is 2 points... a 3 ball combination is 3 points.. kick into a 3 ball combination for 4 points... ect...

so as the match progresses the losing team is forced to start taking flyers.. if you are really down in points you'll need to invent outrageous shots to try and make up lost ground..

you show both teams score as a running total for all players on all tables.. the commentators switch between all the tables showing the most interesting shots

all shots must be called with bar room detail as a nod to the fans AND as a vehicle to let the comentaters know when a cool attempt is about to be made

base the teams by city to give a local rooting factor..

I've mentioned this a couple of times on this site already... but it never gets any traction

A points based, time-limited game is the way forward, I think.

It can't be that difficult to invent a format that's exciting to watch and play, surely?
 
They tried something like it in the same event as the one I posted...here is one between earl and masse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qphuIlYQgk
Cj I can't say I have ever heard you do commentary....but I love watching matches Mike Sigel Commented for. He did alot of the espn stuff and had a knack for it. I believe cj may just be the man to help pool with a life line it needs so bad it isn't funny. You gotta have someone who can reach out to big companies. Someone who has a name and knows the game both on the felt and off. I'm pulling for you C.J. :thumbup:
And I think pre recorded and edited pool matches will be ok....for the people who want to see all the action in detail there is live streaming and ppv. We do have that going for us.
 
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you don't need post production if it's not live it will fail IMO

you build a game for the purpose.. say 5 man teams... cameras on all 5 tables all games played at the same time

variation of 10 ball alternate break each player breaks exactly 5 times.

game is scored by points instead of racks..

a simple cut shot is worth 1 point.. each contact after the first is an additional point so...

a bank shot is 2 points... a kick shot (any number of rails) is 2 points.... a 2 ball combination is 2 points... a 3 ball combination is 3 points.. kick into a 3 ball combination for 4 points... ect...

so as the match progresses the losing team is forced to start taking flyers.. if you are really down in points you'll need to invent outrageous shots to try and make up lost ground..

you show both teams score as a running total for all players on all tables.. the commentators switch between all the tables showing the most interesting shots

all shots must be called with bar room detail as a nod to the fans AND as a vehicle to let the comentaters know when a cool attempt is about to be made

base the teams by city to give a local rooting factor..

I've mentioned this a couple of times on this site already... but it never gets any traction

I have a feeling that without the audience having some type of "emotional attachment" to the players this would be challenging to promote....I've always been of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with regular 9Ball (with perhaps some rule changes) if players were promoted like the Nascar/WWF/MMA/PGA participants....I know personally I only like to watch sports celebrities that I know something about....or personally know.
 
Yes, and I always wondered why anyone would climb a mountain....and after a lifetime of challenges, successes and failures I understand what they mean when they say about climbing Mount Everest - "BECAUSE IT WAS THERE".....pushing yourself to achieve things that don't seem possible makes life worth living ... and that's why we have the internet, airplanes, cell phones, etc.... and I'm sure glad to live in this day and age, it would suck to be on horseback or talking to you on a CB Radio. ;)

C.J., I just wanted to say I enjoy reading your posts. They're like a breath of fresh air in a stuffy pool room. Thanks for your contributions to this forum. It's a better place with you here! :smile:
 
Yes, one thing we have to do is take out the dead time between shots....when I played all those ESPN Events in the mid 90's we were playing a two table format with the WPBA (Ladies Pros) playing beside the Men's Pros.....this was pretty good, however we still need to show JUST non stop action.....Does anyone have any idea on how to do this? I can just imagine doing it in Post Production.

In a televised match (or live match I suppose), I imagine this might make things go a bit faster: Two players, two tables. 10-ball alternate break. 20-second shot clock (clock does not start until outgoing players ass hits his/her chair). One 20-second extension per player, per rack. Match begins (after lag) on table 1. Table 2 has a rack of balls (in a Magic Rack) waiting for the next game. As soon as the 10-ball drops in the first game, the breaker of the next game has 20 seconds to get to table 2 and break on the other table. While game two is underway, the balls on table 1 are being racked and awaiting it's next breaker. The 10-ball spots upon making it on the break (no lucky wins). Callshot/call safe is entirely up to the players VOTE at the players meeting. Pushout after the break only.

This would probably only work for semifinal/final round matches, but it would quicken the matches up with less "dead" time and put an end to the boring-to-watch racking issues.

Just a quick idea off the top of my noggin.

Maniac (anything would be an improvement)
 
Cj I can't say I have ever heard you do commentary....but I love watching matches Mike Sigel Commented for. He did alot of the espn stuff and had a knack for it.

After watching hundreds of streams, I've come to the conclusion that there are few to none regarding first-rate commentators in pool today. Mostly, we have a few guys who are heavily involved with production, sitting there saying, "Wow!" all through the match. They talk about everything but the match they are watching, and when they talk pool, they use jargon that caters to the billiard cognoscenti, not the casual enthusiast. What is needed are real professional commentators who understand how to communicate the essence of what is happening to an essentially pool-naive viewership, while at the same time generating excitement about the game... even during times when there is none.



As far as needing one dominant player who stands above all the rest, there have been precious few in any sport who have completely dominated the field. Back when my sons boxed, Mike Tyson dominated the heavyweight division for several years. Talk in the boxing community was that Tyson's success would eventually hurting boxing revenues because no one could get out of the first few rounds against him. Made for short fights with very predictable outcomes - not the stuff that entertainment is made of. My ex-BIL went to Atlantic City to see the Tyson-Spinks fiasco. He went for beers, and by the time he got back to his (expensive) seat, the fight was over... in under 2 minutes.

No one enjoys watching a contest that is "no contest".



Then there is the issue of all the different pool games at the tournament level, and the varying sets of rules that accompany each one at each event. C'mon... standardize, will ya? I've watched many matches where the players and commentators weren't even aware of the rules that were in place. Find a set of rules that is fair and stick to them. Imagine if each baseball field had it's own set of rules, and the umps were seen conferring with the home team owners before making a call? How can you educate your potential future audience when the rules are different for each event?



FWIW I think 15-ball rotation would be a great game to lead pool into the future. I think one of the attractive things about snooker is that not all balls have the same value. All of the point-scoring possibilities in 15-ball rotation make for a potentially exciting game that moves a bit beyond the standard diet of break-and-run.
 
I have a feeling that without the audience having some type of "emotional attachment" to the players this would be challenging to promote....I've always been of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with regular 9Ball (with perhaps some rule changes) if players were promoted like the Nascar/WWF/MMA/PGA participants....I know personally I only like to watch sports celebrities that I know something about....or personally know.

not sure about that.. 9ball has been a TV failure for 30 straight years.. now with perfect racks and dead wing balls it's even less appealing.

Modern players are emotionless robots who shoot in perfect silence the crowd is not allowed to breathe..

the only bright spot is the mosconi cup you see emotion brought on by the team dynamic.. the crowd is allowed to have some fun...

we also need modern players that can be sold... guys like Mcreedy and Mataya those guys put asses in the seats. watching a stoic Corey Deuel soft break his pattern rack and run off carbon copy runnouts can't even keep the interest of a superfan..

I think an exciting game with with players shooting tough shots instead of running from them is the way forward..

but what do I know
 
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