Does Pool Need a Dominant Player to get World Wide Attention Like Other Sports?

[CJ Wiley]

Pool Gladiators

Pool is too easy. It does not allow the best player to win.

Think about how many critical shots occur in a match that could separate a champion from a second tier player. If the break is working and the balls set up well, a player might be on the table for ten minutes before facing a testing shot -- one that shows the real level of the player's skill.

Compare that to tennis. About every five seconds each player has to do something few in the audience could ever accomplish. This goes on for about two hours. A few can dominate at tennis not because someone is vastly superior to the rest, but because they are somewhat better and that is tested many, many times during a match.

Larger tables and smaller pockets? A different game?


There is the old story of a spectator at a Mosconi exhibition saying, "He's nothing special. All his shots were easy. I could have made them."

Yes, the consensus that I'm hearing from the top players is 10' Tables, 4.5 inch pockets (with deeper shelf) AND Slower Cloth/Rails (so the stroke is more important to move the cue ball around the table) ....I must say I agree on all these points, and I'm sure Alex, Johnny, Earl, and Rodney will agree as well. We've tried the easy way with big pockets, fast cloth/rails, kryptonite tips/jump cues , etc to make things easier and the popularity has decreased...I'm just suggesting that maybe it's time to try something new and make it VERY challenging so the cream does rise to the top....AND that player has a chance to legitimately dominate the game which historically draws attention to that particular sport/game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

C.J., look at the tournament roster of the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship in, say, the '90s and look at the names you see on that roster today. Quite a different demographic these days!

Yes, you've noticed that too.....there's a glaring absence of Local Players in the Winner's Circle....I think it's time to "try" to understand why. There's also a noticeable decrease in competition between local players in this country since the 90s....there is certainly more than one reason, I'm just bringing up one.

 

[scratchs]

True dat. Currently, there are four different reality shows on TruTV about towing and repo: Operation Repo, Lizard Lick Towing, South Beach Towing, and I forget the other name.

Then there's the latest reality show on pawn stores. You have Pawn Stars, Cajun Pawn Stars, Combat Pawn, and Hard Core Pawn. Sheesh!

Seems like America is more interested in repossession and pawn shops than pool. Both have to do with financial situations, in some form or another.

BTW, I'm a fan of Lizard Lick Towing and Operation Repo. I can't believe it, but I am. I also love Hard Core Pawn and Pawn Stars. There, I said it!

Lizard Lick is funny stuff..I still think theres to much junk on the tube.

 

[JAM]

Lizard Lick is funny stuff..I still think theres to much junk on the tube.

Yeah, for sure. I'm only watching these instead of the reruns of my favorite sitcoms.

September 16th is the first episode of "Boardwalk Empire," so that's something to look forward to. Here's the Season 3 Trailor ---> Boardwalk Empire Trailor.

Of course, my all-time favor is "Justified." I am a HUGE Walter Goggins fan.

A TV show, movie, or anything with one of these stars would be a kickstart to the pool industry.

 

[CJ Wiley]

i guess i'm stupid or something, but i believe the fast cloth and active rails have made the game tougher. it's like playing on wet ice and the cream rises to the top in this environment. I do believe that jump cues should be banned and if you want to try a jump shot then you would have to use your regular cue. i believe the jump cue has almost eliminated the masse shots that were so prevalent in years past. i also disagree with your premise of why the game was so popular in years past. i believe the decline in good paying jobs has severely injured the pool world. there is no longer "the food chain" necessary for pool to thrive. more people with more disposable income created an environment for players to excel and strive to become great, whatever the definition is for great, in the gambling world or the tounment world. I also think pool needs both of these "worlds" to return to the glory days of old. i don't believe it will ever happen, but one can hope. my nickels worth anyway.

Fast conditions virtually eliminate the need for power in the pool stroke....at first this may seem ok, but if you think in terms of doing it in any other sport it will start to make sense....whatever sport you like, just imagine the surface being 50% faster an imagine how the game would change....this is what has happened to pool and no one seemed to notice, but the Top Pros and they can't say anything for fear of "rocking the boat" and losing what little sponsorship they are getting.....which is peanuts:-(

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

...Few regular athletes can compete with Michael Jordan at basketball or Tiger Woods at golf, however, if they have to play on an unusually fast substance (solid ice) MANY people would have a chance to win against them....speeding up playing surfaces is not only one of the greatest equalizers, but it has, in effect made the game incredibly boring ... Anyone that saw that great match ups of the 70's, 80's and 90's will agree that there was just a different sound and force to the shots and atmosphere because of the conditions....which was more conducive to exciting matches and more exciting, dominant, and powerful players.

The fact is though, that in professional golf the toughest conditions are the hard and fast set ups, not the slow and soft. All four majors are set up to play hard and fast. In golf if the greens are slow and soft practically all the players are just throwing darts at the hole. Same with the tee shot, it is easier to keep the ball in the fairway when the conditions are slow.

I think I see what you are saying but the analogy to golf just doesn't work for me as the premise is wrong.

 

[Ratta]

One thing many people respect about golf is they have allowed condition changes and higher tech equipment , but not at the expense of the integrity of the game.....the ball is the same size, the hole is the same size, and they use a "Stimpmeter" to measure the speed of the greens ...and they have taken strides to make the golf courses even more challenging because of the lighter shafts, better designed balls and other high tech material that improves distance. It's proven that their fans want to see the power shots and that holds true in tennis and baseball too.

What many Top Players say is make conditions tougher and give someone a chance to dominate, so this can truly be called the "Master Game".....it MUST to be MORE difficult/challenging for a pro....statistically there are a lot more great players today, but VERY FEW new ones, 70% of them were top players 15 years ago, but the thing is the tables with the fast, slick cloth, super-fast rails, high tech jump/break cues and heavier cue balls DO NOT require as much knowledge, stroke or power, and that's what separates CHAMPION level play more than anything... popular opinion indicates {demands for athletic type performance} is the most fun to watch as well....the power/shotmaking game is exciting to watch and it's virtually been eliminated ...with the faster playing conditions it's taken MANY shots out of the game and made running balls much easier....which isn't just an equalizer, but has taken away some of the most difficult and visually appealing parts of the game ... on the average pool shots are hit with 30% less force than they were back when pool was so popular in the 70s, 80s & 90s. This, in comparison it would be like golfers hitting 240 yard drives which would be far LESS exciting for the fans to watch.

To make this point as clear as possible imagine the following scenario as an EXTREME example:

Few regular athletes can compete with Michael Jordan at basketball or Tiger Woods at golf, however, if they have to play on an unusually fast substance (solid ice) MANY people would have a chance to win against them....speeding up playing surfaces is not only one of the greatest equalizers, but it has, in effect made the game incredibly boring ... Anyone that saw that great match ups of the 70's, 80's and 90's will agree that there was just a different sound and force to the shots and atmosphere because of the conditions....which was more conducive to exciting matches and more exciting, dominant, and powerful players.

Every sport needs great champions- and in my opinion especially guys who polarizes. Those guys give you these special moments that forces you to get as soon as possible to the table again
I have also my 3-4 pool players which gettin me always-just by watching them. Or let me also take you as an example CJ- you are also able to get me just writing some things. I need influential guys who are pushing me towards a goal on my pool journey. May it be a knowledged champion like you, who s writing down his thoughts to help other guys- or may it be Earl, just by watching him, or Efren or Ralf, ..or.or.

Where would pool be without those guys?
lg
Ingo

 

[CJ Wiley]

How far can you hit a golf ball on ice?

The fact is though, that in professional golf the toughest conditions are the hard and fast set ups, not the slow and soft. All four majors are set up to play hard and fast. In golf if the greens are slow and soft practically all the players are just throwing darts at the hole. Same with the tee shot, it is easier to keep the ball in the fairway when the conditions are slow.

I think I see what you are saying but the analogy to golf just doesn't work for me as the premise is wrong.

I think the analogy was playing golf on "solid ice"....I'll play Tiger some under those conditions LoL ....if he plays me pool under the same conditions. :deadhorse: .....Interestingly enough one thing Hank Haney told me is if they want to make the golf courses tougher they should eliminate the rough, not make it taller....then long hitters like Tiger would be more penalized on wild drives because there wouldn't be any rough to stop their ball.....and Tiger's strong enough that tall rough isn't as much a penalty as it is for other other golfers.....just some interesting "food for thought"

 

[DecentShot]

I thought some of the top professionals do have worldwide attention. Especially in places other than the United States. Maybe the question should be, what player is going to make the US take pool as seriously as the rest of the world. But let me say that I think we miss the overall picture. There is a reason why pool is at where its at. Same thing with soccer. No matter how big pool gets in the rest of the world. Its just not going to happen in the United States. I think that is a logical conclusion to draw.

 

[bender_lu]

You better have a good powerful stroke to play 9-ball on an old 10' table with old backed cloth, old rubber, and the old balls. Add to that no A/C on a humid day or night and you see who can go 5 or 6 rails and get pinpoint position for the next shot. Todays tables only need the weight of the cue and a poke to get there. There is a huge difference. Johnnyt

THIS, my friend.... today you dont even have to develop a nice follow through, superfast cloth along with the "modern" wipes... it produces spin no matter of the stroke quality.

i was so amazed watching some old 9 ball vids i found on youtube... the newer ones put me to sleep... and straight pool on that fast cloth is no fun at all. sometimes i feel like pissing on the table would be the best solution to get a speed where i can let my arm go a little bit

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I think the analogy was playing golf on "solid ice"....I'll play Tiger some under those conditions LoL ....if he plays me pool under the same conditions. :deadhorse: .....Interestingly enough one thing Hank Haney told me is if they want to make the golf courses tougher they should eliminate the rough, not make it taller....then long hitters like Tiger would be more penalized on wild drives because there wouldn't be any rough to stop their ball.....and Tiger's strong enough that tall rough isn't as much a penalty as it is for other other golfers.....just some interesting "food for thought"

Interesting comment by Mr. Haney considering they first put rough in at Augusta the year after Tiger won with a record 18 under. The greens are still like putting on ice though.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Safety vs. skill?

I happen to agree with CJ ...And of course in rotation games the elimination of two foul to one foul makes it more of a safety game ...Takes a lot of the skill factor away from the best player ...

The defensive half of the game requires a bit of skill as well, particularly thinking skills. There's this guy named Efren...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[ComptonCustomCues]

A pool reality show would give pool a breath of life. I used to think cleaning up the sport and making it like tennis or golf would work...but I now believe we have to use the stereotypes like poker did. Have a crew follow several road players. Show the dark seedy pool rooms, the late night wolfing, long grinding gambling. But also show the same players in big tournaments like derby and the us open. Show the top level players like shane, dennis, and alex. Somewhere on youtube is a bank ring game where they cut right to the shots. Its fast intense and entertaining. Capture the whole spectrum from pro to hustler. Follow different players and have someone like cj commentate so you can hear old road stories. Talk about guys like cj, cooney, hines, and many more. Also show that it can be a pro sport if you want to take it that far. This is the only way pool can get anywhere.....it worked for poker, motorcycles, car shops, and many more shows. Let it work for pool. Also we have to elect a board of members and start the pba back up. I would love to be able to play and possibly get good enough to have a tour card. Its a goal many would love to have if there was just a damn pro tour out there. Think about all the weekend golfers who work to get their card. Even in last place its like hitting the big time. Capture things like this>>>>>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br9a-ck9tcg
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcwixpmZlI
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqBvSM-qbqM
and here is an old one.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekyLXFehvvk

 

[CJ Wiley]

Interesting comment by Mr. Haney considering they first put rough in at Augusta the year after Tiger won with a record 18 under. The greens are still like putting on ice though.

Yes, and I was just making another point about how sometimes what people "think" makes a game tougher and what really does is sometimes very different....until Hank told me this I would have thought the deeper rough would penalize the big drivers, but it made sense when he described why NO ROUGH would be the ultimate penalization ....and you're right, it's tough to make an exact comparison between golf and pool, it's just natural for me especially after spending so much time around Hank Haney (the 2 years before he started working full time with Tiger Woods)

Hank LOVES pool and keeps records and statistics on EVERY GAME he plays.....I spent Christmas with him and his family one year at Deer Valley and he had a pool table at his house there.....he wrote down EVERY game we played with key notes......it was well over 300 games

I have a feeling it's time to approach him about doing a pool/golf show in the Golf Channel....we've always talked about showing the correlations.

 

[Masirib5]

Pool is dying a slow death in the US. As rents go up more pool halls will close.

Does anyone know why there are no major sponsors of pool in the US like in other countries/regions of the world? People don't watch pool in the US. It isn't exciting for most people. Sponsors like a beer company and such would get nothing out of sponsoring pool.

We love pool but that's us.

People in poor countries like the Philippines love pool and love to watch it because they have pool idols or national sports heroes! No one cares about pool in the US. Ask anyone on the streets of anyplace in the Philippines who any of the top pool players are and they can tell you. Ask the person on the street in the US and they wouldn't have a clue for the most part.

Just my opinion. (I Love Pool!)

--Jeff

 

[CJ Wiley]

Back to Reality

A pool reality show would give pool a breath of life. I used to think cleaning up the sport and making it like tennis or golf would work...but I now believe we have to use the stereotypes like poker did. Have a crew follow several road players. Show the dark seedy pool rooms, the late night wolfing, long grinding gambling. But also show the same players in big tournaments like derby and the us open. Show the top level players like shane, dennis, and alex. Somewhere on youtube is a bank ring game where they cut right to the shots. Its fast intense and entertaining. Capture the whole spectrum from pro to hustler. Follow different players and have someone like cj commentate so you can hear old road stories. Talk about guys like cj, cooney, hines, and many more. Also show that it can be a pro sport if you want to take it that far. This is the only way pool can get anywhere.....it worked for poker, motorcycles, car shops, and many more shows. Let it work for pool. Also we have to elect a board of members and start the pba back up. I would love to be able to play and possibly get good enough to have a tour card. Its a goal many would love to have if there was just a damn pro tour out there. Think about all the weekend golfers who work to get their card. Even in last place its like hitting the big time. Capture things like this>>>>>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br9a-ck9tcg
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcwixpmZlI
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqBvSM-qbqM
and here is an old one.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekyLXFehvvk

I think you are "spot on" with your observations.....the reality show is something we are pursuing....we're putting a different "spin" on what you were saying, but we've targeting a mature female demographic

 

[AlexandruM]

Not equipment is the cause of pool's popularity, tough equipment you say? Let's play Russian pyramid then, but even in Russia the popularity of pyramid is not high.
Now we have a lot more modalities to spend our time, then 10 or 20 years ago. In mine opinion, in Europe pool's popularity is growing up.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

In answer to your question, "Does pool need a dominant player?", I'd have to say no because it probably has one already. Efren, Scott, Shane, or any of a host of others could fill that spot.
If, however, you are asking if there is someone who could step up to the plate and resurrect the game of pool to it's former glory, then I think your expectations are unrealistically high. To do so would require an indivual with style and charisma on par with Hollywood actors, and mega-star sports figures, which again, in my opinion, would be unrealistic.
As others here have stated, it's the public's wants and desires that drive the engine of success for any endeaver, and the cue sports, at least at this point in history, are not high on the list for change. I think our first, and more important task is to simply try and keep our pool rooms open. :smile:

 

[CreeDo]

Guess you're asking "do we need to make equipment tougher", I don't see hardly anything in there about a single dominant player... it couldn't hurt if some superpro crops up who demolishes everyone for the next 5 years.

My answer is, no... pool, when played right, doesn't call for that many extreme stroke shots. when played right, it looks simple on any equipment. If pros need to hit the ball twice as hard on slow cloth, they'll hit the ball twice as hard, and the viewer will have no idea they just saw a nice stroke.

Even if a nice stroke is obvious (We all love corey deuel's bendy draw shot from 2008), I don't think pool's viewership (and sponsorship) rises as a result of lots of nice stroke shots. They look cool, but to the untrained eye, nothing on a pool table looks as amazing as a guy hitting a hole in one.

Funny thing about jump shots... players who have actually tried it know it's easy with the right equipment. But to the average joe it looks like magic to see a guy jump and actually make a cut shot. I think we need to draw in the average joes so I would NOT suggest banning jump cues even though some argue it makes the game too easy.

 

[catpool9]

:smile:

I think you are "spot on" with your observations.....the reality show is something we are pursuing....we're putting a different "spin" on what you were saying, but we've targeting a mature female demographic

Yes a reality pool show could go over really well, start off with a couple good younger players in their twenty's, a couple guys 35-45 age range, and have an older gentleman player in his 60's range to be the brains, and maybe throw a few girl friends in the mix,.

Have them traveling all over the USA going from tournament to tournament, city to city in a nice motor home and you would have different players/characters indrocuced weekly/monthly as you are on the road, have all the goings on about being pool players would be a hit in know time I think!:smile:


David Harcrow