Does Pool Need better TV Production Quality?

[jmccarthy]

For a while now I've been listening to debates about how pool in the U.S. is suffering and how everyone wants it to be bigger and more successful. I often hear that pool isn't a great spectator sport, which I agree with to an extent. One thing that I haven't heard talk about is raising the level of production quality of what is shown either in the streaming or on TV.

It seems to me that there's a ton of room for improvement in showing stats, tellustration, and graphics which explain what a player is doing during the match. I often think about the great production quality of the "mastering pool" DVD set when I think about how good the production quality could be.

I also often want some player background stats what would baseball be like to watch if you didn't know the batting averages, or the number of home runs they hit, are they a power hitter? We all know who has the monster breaks but that's not a story that comes through in the production.

Also, when I see a player going for a tough shot I have a sense that it is low percentage but the average viewer doesn't appreciate that, why not show like they do in poker the probability of them making that shot or running out.

Seems to me that a big part of making the game more successful is making it more enjoyable to the viewer. Thoughts?

 

[j13smiley]

agreed...

i don't play poker but have been addicted to watching it on tv for years... the percentages and things keep me hooked when i see it on.

break speed for each break, possibly of run out % as the match goes on, individual shot difficulty, point of contact on cue ball...

i'm not a fan of baseball on tv but i do enjoy seeing each pitch speed, the little graph showing where the ball passed through the strike zone, etc... some of those could be adapted to pool.

 

[framedglasshadd]

Yes, they could do much better... from my experience watching online, they usually just have the score, the game footage, and some unimpressed commentator. I still like to watch it a lot though.

But perhaps it is because baseball, basketball are more invested-in? TV commercial and companies invest in them. Top players advertise a variety of products, restaurants, etc. They are famous and people watch their sport. I have not heard of a billiards player endorsing anything but a chalk brand or more billiards equipment. Maybe the TV production does not care to add to the quality because not many people watch (even though improving it may get more views) and it is not like the FIFA world cup or something where companies are dying to get commercials on... so they do not get a lot of money from commercials/companies/sponsors for airing cue sports. I am not really sure if that is how it is, but I would think that is why.

Although I like to watch it as it is, I do agree that it would be much more entertaining if they added those statistics and graphics like other sports.

 

[mikefingers]

better coverage=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

you get the kind of quality your getting because no one has the money to put up for a better quality stream! Accu-stats has about $600k in production equipment which is why they put out the highest quality matches! You would need an army of people, with tons of cash to acquire the kind of stats your talking about! Most pool rooms and larger venues are not set up for that kind of production, and if they were it would not be profitable to make dvd's because you could never sell enough to offset the cost to film these tournaments! I've done a ton of commentating and I can tell you it's not an easy job! Cramped quarters, bad lighting, bad monitors, poor video quality, video feed problems, problems with the cameras and lights, it's almost impossible to put on one of these events! That is why you get the lower quality productions! Things really won't get any better untill somebody puts up a boat load of cash and gets the bigger companies to invest in pool like they do in golf! Just imagine the quality of matches you would see if NBC or FOX sent in there cameras and crew to film the bigger matches!!!!!!!
Thank the few guys out there doing the live streams, they are doing the best they can do!! If you can donate your time to amass some stats on players break speed and the percentage of a run out, I'm sure anybody you give that stuff to would thank you a bunch!!

 

[Skippy9Baller]

Summer Slam 2012

Maybe they need to approach it from a different angle and not so much on the production quality. I think the guys at TAR are onto something. I like the idea of having a structure similar to pro wrestling or boxing. Have someone that is the champ and have others "ranked" below him/her. Instead of a 10 round fight, they would have some kind of extended challenge match to decide who retains the championship belt.

We could still have tournaments. They could be used to determine rankings and championship challenge matches.

Yes, I know that there would be a lot of nit-picking and crying about rankings, etc, but that is what gets people talking. That could spark controversy and discussion. Mic-up the players, so the true characters come out...good and bad.

I don't think it should be "phony" like wrestling. I just like the format of having a champion. Someone that common-folk...casual fans...can get to know and recognize.

After all, isn't this what they used to do on Wide World of Sports. They would have challenge matches, right?

Also, make the tables challenging, but not so tough that they look average. When I talk to non-pool junkies about matches that they see on ESPN, I don't think they understand just how good the top-flight players are. I want them to see someone string 6, 7, 8 or 9 racks. That is what would get people talking. Casual fans can't appreciate tough tables. All they see are misses...the same thing they see at the bar league they play in.

Anyhow...those are my thoughts.
Cheers,
Skippy

 

[framedglasshadd]

Mic-up the players, so the true characters come out...good and bad.

This alone, I think, would make everything so much more interesting. I have always wanted to hear the players talk about the game.

 

[King T]

It wont matter!

Pool as much as I LOVE it and play and back it with my pocket..., it is not a crowd friendly game! Its hard to watch, for the most part because its hard to play, so understanding whats going on is tuff for most people.

Golf, easy to follow, hit the ball and hit the ball again..., poker, play the best cards and you win..., pool, a lot to understand and for most people, to much to understand.

 

[Mr. Bond]

premium stars + premium venue = premium sponsor = premium ad rates = premium production = premium airtime= premium stars + premium venue = premium sponsor = premium ad rates = premium production = premium airtime = premium audience = premium stars....

 

[softshot]

The only thing that can save American pool is integrity from top to bottom..

but I just don't see it in the cards

 

[jmccarthy]

It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing in a way. If someone doesn't make it more appealing to viewers then they won't get more viewers and sponsors won't come. On the other hand there's not much in the way of sponsors right now so you could argue that we're doomed.

In any case I think there are ways to improve production quality "on the cheap" that should be considered. How hard is it to have measure break speed? Not hard. How hard is it to show a summary of a player's record for the year?

I'll bet if you could enlist the help of the Virtual Pool guys you could come up with a real-time shot percentage estimator or at least some sort of thing where it shows a level of difficulty (green to red scale) for key shots in a match in real-time.

Take some baby steps? I see matches on Fox and ESPN all the time with lousy production quality, with all the talk about bigger better tournaments or new leagues etc, seems like this sort of thing is way more bang for the buck. For the last month Fox has been playing replays of last year's Mosconi cup matches, these things obviously went through rigorous editing yet they are still crappy quality compared to any other sporting event on TV.

I suggest a meeting of Accustats, Runout media, TAR, and the Virtual Pool guys. I bet between these guys they could come up with a way to make watching pool way more compelling and would further the game we all love.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think you will see a very top notch pool production soon, a taste of it will be out there I think in the next few weeks. Bonus Ball is having all the video work done by Run Out Media from top to bottom, you will see fresh stuff that will keep you awake and watching, real visual stimulation. Here are some production photos that were taken from Vegas. :smile:

 

[Fast Lenny]

Here are some more. :smile:

 

[JCIN]

There are things that can be done. All of them take time and money. There is no money in pool to be had so what you see is done by amateurs with time or people like me (basically still an amateur at most shit) and a few others who thanks to a small group of supporters hang on doing the best we can with resources we have.

Bonus ball is the first group lately claiming to have the money to do better production work. Personally if I was risking millions I would go ahead and get a crew with actual TV production experience. There is a big difference between taking six months to make a DVD and doing live events four days a week for six months.

I did some napkin math and came up with a number around $2 million for the first six month season of bonus ball. Thats on the low side. My question is why go with people who have never ran live tv productions before when you are risking that kind of money? Only answers I get is you don't know what you are doing or you are trying to save a lot of money on production. Basically doing things the exact same way as everyone else.

IMO the only hope Bonus ball has is fantastic production with some kind of hook that can catch non pool fans. More power to them if they can swing it.

 

[Fast Lenny]

There are things that can be done. All of them take time and money. There is no money in pool to be had so what you see is done by amateurs with time or people like me (basically still an amateur at most shit) and a few others who thanks to a small group of supporters hang on doing the best we can with resources we have.

Bonus ball is the first group lately claiming to have the money to do better production work. Personally if I was risking millions I would go ahead and get a crew with actual TV production experience. There is a big difference between taking six months to make a DVD and doing live events four days a week for six months.

I did some napkin math and came up with a number around $2 million for the first six month season of bonus ball. Thats on the low side. My question is why go with people who have never ran live tv productions before when you are risking that kind of money? Only answers I get is you don't know what you are doing or you are trying to save a lot of money on production. Basically doing things the exact same way as everyone else.

IMO the only hope Bonus ball has is fantastic production with some kind of hook that can catch non pool fans. More power to them if they can swing it.

I think the idea of bringing in new people are the fresh ideas and a different approach instead of the same old things we have been seeing that is obviously not working. Lets get ESPN to do it because the WPBA broadcast are so exciting and great to watch which is exactly why no one is watching it, haha. Those in the business are content with what they are doing and really have no intentions of taking anything to the next level, no motivation especially for those already in the money so to speak. You will see stuff from this production never seen before, it will be different with stuff done that other people in the industry cannot do, not because they do not have the money but the knowledge to do it.

I personally have not seen one person out there who has done better video production work in pool then Run Out Media, perhaps that is why they were chosen. You can find very talented people out there in video but many know little to nothing about pool. You could take a video guy who works on feature films and put him behind your camera but how can he film pool when he does not know the game or what people want to see so essentially they are the amateurs and would look like one filming a pool match. Its like taking a pro Football commentator who is great at his gig with a great voice and telling him to do a pool match.

I think Bonus Ball affects you in a big way Justin because if it takes off it helps TAR and many others in pool. The reason being is if the players get more world wide exposure which equals more fans then that transfers to more people seeking to watch them elsewhere lets say in the TAR format. Also all the players will be in Vegas for 6 months or more so I am sure that will help you guys save on the nut of flying them in and putting them up in the hotels too, so Bonus Ball will already be making TAR money along with the ability to make more matches happen which is good for the players too.

It does not affect any of the people presently in pool from top to bottom because it is different, all those in the industry will continue to do what they do. Hopefully it takes off and money rains down on the rest of the industry, people usually get scared and first thing they think about when something new comes along in an industry is how it affects them and there pockets too.

The thing that is also different is the guys behind Bonus Ball namely Larry and Barry are visionaries. Most of the top promoters out there are not willing to dig deep to make things happen or take a chance, they do not see past what they are already doing or have accomplished. They are okay making money how they are, if its not broke do not fix it, so the pro players are the ones getting the short end of the stick really. I think sometimes you gotta take a chance, like Wayne Gretzky said "You'll always miss 100% of the shots you don't take.".

 

[jmccarthy]

Seems like the tail is wagging the dog here with Bonus Ball. What happens if the game itself doesn't catch on? Shouldn't we try the increased production value on a game which is already known and played by millions of amateurs?

Nothing against Bonus Ball, but I don't think we need a new game in order to improve the viewing experience. Also, it seems to me that you want to leverage your strengths which is that tons of people play pool badly already and understand the rules.

I'm glad to see the runout media folks involved in something like this, it just seems a shame that it's not something that can be more easily replicated by the rest of the pool community.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Seems like the tail is wagging the dog here with Bonus Ball. What happens if the game itself doesn't catch on? Shouldn't we try the increased production value on a game which is already known and played by millions of amateurs?

Nothing against Bonus Ball, but I don't think we need a new game in order to improve the viewing experience. Also, it seems to me that you want to leverage your strengths which is that tons of people play pool badly already and understand the rules.

I'm glad to see the runout media folks involved in something like this, it just seems a shame that it's not something that can be more easily replicated by the rest of the pool community.

I watched the Accu-Stats 8 ball and it was the most enjoyable live stream I have ever watched and I have seen countless hours of it. I think if you were to take any old game it would be that one. I just think people need to give BB a chance because it really is a good game which the die hards can even appreciate as it involves all the game all rolled up into one, the best all around players will excel at this game.

 

[JCIN]

I think the idea of bringing in new people are the fresh ideas and a different approach instead of the same old things we have been seeing that is obviously not working. Lets get ESPN to do it because the WPBA broadcast are so exciting and great to watch which is exactly why no one is watching it, haha. Those in the business are content with what they are doing and really have no intentions of taking anything to the next level, no motivation especially for those already in the money so to speak. You will see stuff from this production never seen before, it will be different with stuff done that other people in the industry cannot do, not because they do not have the money but the knowledge to do it.

I personally have not seen one person out there who has done better video production work in pool then Run Out Media, perhaps that is why they were chosen. You can find very talented people out there in video but many know little to nothing about pool. You could take a video guy who works on feature films and put him behind your camera but how can he film pool when he does not know the game or what people want to see so essentially they are the amateurs and would look like one filming a pool match. Its like taking a pro Football commentator who is great at his gig with a great voice and telling him to do a pool match.

I think Bonus Ball affects you in a big way Justin because if it takes off it helps TAR and many others in pool. The reason being is if the players get more world wide exposure which equals more fans then that transfers to more people seeking to watch them elsewhere lets say in the TAR format. Also all the players will be in Vegas for 6 months or more so I am sure that will help you guys save on the nut of flying them in and putting them up in the hotels too, so Bonus Ball will already be making TAR money along with the ability to make more matches happen which is good for the players too.

It does not affect any of the people presently in pool from top to bottom because it is different, all those in the industry will continue to do what they do. Hopefully it takes off and money rains down on the rest of the industry, people usually get scared and first thing they think about when something new comes along in an industry is how it affects them and there pockets too.

The thing that is also different is the guys behind Bonus Ball namely Larry and Barry are visionaries. Most of the top promoters out there are not willing to dig deep to make things happen or take a chance, they do not see past what they are already doing or have accomplished. They are okay making money how they are, if its not broke do not fix it, so the pro players are the ones getting the short end of the stick really. I think sometimes you gotta take a chance, like Wayne Gretzky said "You'll always miss 100% of the shots you don't take.".

You know I had an amazing point by point post detailing all of the things I see wrong or unanswered about the whole deal. Then I erased it because I realized it doesnt matter.

I mean what could possibly go wrong?

Stop by the studio when you are in town Lenny I'll buy you a drink or twenty.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

Personally, I don't think lack of production quality or lack of "spectator appeal" is the problem. Bass fishing is not exactly a spectator sport, yet they have a thriving pro tour with many out of industry corporate sponsors, ESPN coverage, and they fill small stadiums with spectators for the weigh-ins of their season ending tournaments.

IMO, pool doesn't have enough trendy merchandise to fuel participant spending and corporate sales profits. Fishing has thousands of luers, rods, reels, boats, etc and manufacturers can make and sell new versions of each of these products every year. In return, these companies invest in event/player sponsorships and the cycle is created.

No merch, no sales. No sales, no merchants. No merchants, no sponsors. No sponsors, no events. No events, no growth. Just my opinion of course.

TAR and Accu-stats do a very good job of producing their streams IMO. Not general public broadcast (ESPN) quality, but perfect for their viewers who know the game.

 

[Slh]

Seems like the tail is wagging the dog here with Bonus Ball. What happens if the game itself doesn't catch on? Shouldn't we try the increased production value on a game which is already known and played by millions of amateurs?

Nothing against Bonus Ball, but I don't think we need a new game in order to improve the viewing experience. Also, it seems to me that you want to leverage your strengths which is that tons of people play pool badly already and understand the rules.

I'm glad to see the runout media folks involved in something like this, it just seems a shame that it's not something that can be more easily replicated by the rest of the pool community.

They are promoting this game because they want to attract new players..... I'm with them because obviously 9ball, 10 ball, straight pool and one pocket are not really attractive for a tv audience. Bonus ball seems an "americanata"* to me but I hope the game works for tv and it is successfull.

* Americanata= http://dobianchi.com/2009/06/22/americanata-mondavi-in-italy/

 

[jmccarthy]

Think about what would happen if you took away the production value of various televised sports? Who would ever want to sit through hours of someone playing cards? Outdoor sports have the advantage of scenery and the viewer imagining that they are on the boat fishing or on a nice golf course that they could never afford to get into. Perhaps with the TAR format there's an opportunity to do a HBO 24/7 type of hyping of the players. There's some absolutely amazing back stories with many of the top players that could be used in the productions.

I do agree that lack of a "consumable" for merchandising is a problem. Although, there are other sports without a lot of merchandising such as poker (although online gaming probably makes up for that), boxing/mma isn't a merchandising friendly sport either.

I continue to believe that you need to try producing a good season of modern high quality products to see if you can attract new viewers/players and then see if everyone wants those yellow nike shoes that SVB wears.