DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.

When I hear discussions about how to keep as little movement as possible; make your body as mechanically simple as possible; etc. I get flashes of Keith McCready with his side arm stroke; all sorts of body English; jumping up on the shot. Obviously he was only concerned about the tip, the cue ball and the object ball. I am not an expert but it sure worked for him.
 
When I hear discussions about how to keep as little movement as possible; make your body as mechanically simple as possible; etc. I get flashes of Keith McCready with his side arm stroke; all sorts of body English; jumping up on the shot. Obviously he was only concerned about the tip, the cue ball and the object ball. I am not an expert but it sure worked for him.

It does work for him, but it works for him in spite of his mechanics not because of them.
 
When I hear discussions about how to keep as little movement as possible; make your body as mechanically simple as possible; etc. I get flashes of Keith McCready with his side arm stroke; all sorts of body English; jumping up on the shot. Obviously he was only concerned about the tip, the cue ball and the object ball. I am not an expert but it sure worked for him.

Combine the mechanics of McCready and Bustamante and you will have created yourself a unique superior stroke. :D
 
It does work for him, but it works for him in spite of his mechanics not because of them.

Or maybe any stroke system would work for Mccready (or any other pro) because they have what we don't. That innate athleticism and ability to control their bodies.

I've yet to see a single documented case in 20 yrs of in-person pool hall addiction, and 10 yrs of Internet pool forum addiction, of even a single person that went from C speed to A speed. I'm of course talking about an established C speed player who was tgere for several years. Not a brand new player who is C speed for a week on his way to becoming a real player.

In all the discussions we've had on nature vs nurture, stroke theories, instruction, debate of the value of instruction, aiming systems, you name it, please someone show me that single C who became an A.
 
Or maybe any stroke system would work for Mccready (or any other pro) because they have what we don't. That innate athleticism and ability to control their bodies.

I've yet to see a single documented case in 20 yrs of in-person pool hall addiction, and 10 yrs of Internet pool forum addiction, of even a single person that went from C speed to A speed. I'm of course talking about an established C speed player who was tgere for several years. Not a brand new player who is C speed for a week on his way to becoming a real player.

In all the discussions we've had on nature vs nurture, stroke theories, instruction, debate of the value of instruction, aiming systems, you name it, please someone show me that single C who became an A.

I've been a C player for 10 years and in the last year have become a B player. All because I've been more dedicated to improving. I could easily be an A player by the end of 2014.
 
I've been a C player for 10 years and in the last year have become a B player. All because I've been more dedicated to improving. I could easily be an A player by the end of 2014.

You didn't do it yet.

If you can beat the 9 ball ghost on a regular basis, or run 100 in straight pool once, at the end of 2014, on a 9' table, I'll buy you a $500 cue. I think those two definitions are pretty accepted as to the minimum of what an A is.

This is all assuming you're not hustling me. I know what a C player is. I am one and have been for 15 solid years. Occasionally I play above my head and play into the B range.
 
You didn't do it yet.

If you can beat the 9 ball ghost on a regular basis, or run 100 in straight pool once, at the end of 2014, on a 9' table, I'll buy you a $500 cue. I think those two definitions are pretty accepted as to the minimum of what an A is.

This is all assuming you're not hustling me. I know what a C player is. I am one and have been for 15 solid years. Occasionally I play above my head and play into the B range.

I'll give it a try.

You can see my level of play by checking out my videos in the ask the instructor forum.
 
I'll give it a try.

You can see my level of play by checking out my videos in the ask the instructor forum.

I wish you all the best. I sincerely do. If you can do it, I'm gonna hound you till you tell me exactly all that you did so I can try the same.

Good luck:)
 
It does work for him, but it works for him in spite of his mechanics not because of them.

I agree with your statement. I noticed when he was on it seemed like he jumped up the instant after he had hit the cue ball. But when he was a little off it seemed like he was jumping a bit earlier. It was a delicate balance I think.
 
When I hear discussions about how to keep as little movement as possible; make your body as mechanically simple as possible; etc. I get flashes of Keith McCready with his side arm stroke; all sorts of body English; jumping up on the shot. Obviously he was only concerned about the tip, the cue ball and the object ball. I am not an expert but it sure worked for him.

Lee Trevino and Jim Furyk were/are two of the best ball strikers in the history of golf. I've never heard of any instructor trying to teach their swings. As someone else said, they were successful in spite of their poor fundamentals. Using that kind of reference as justification for something is like some grade schooler using "Tommy and Billy are doing it" as an excuse for bad behavior. Some people are simply Savants IMHO. Others become incredibly proficient through mind staggering repetition. There are some pretty speedy players with one arm but that doesn't mean anyone should attempt to learn the game playing with one arm. Since you referenced Keith McCready, have you attempted to pattern your own stroke after his? How's that working for you?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC2R84S0kiw

Shane Van Boenings stroke


I think we'd all like to have his stroke? Just throwing this out here...

Nice video. You can see he does something different on nearly every shot. Sometimes his elbow moves up, sometimes down, sometimes down a little, sometimes down a lot. Some movement in his shoulder is obvious too. Also his elbow seems to move sideways on some shots like its wiggling about.

I wonder if Shane would be able to beat Efren if he used a textbook pendulum stroke on each and every shot. Oh wait, he already did beat Efren. [end sarcasm]
 
Btw, the video referenced in the first post is an excerpt from Max's DVD set. I own the set. It's been a couple of years since I saw it, but I believe he went into more detail about when to use the two different stroke styles.

The thing I remember most was thinking to myself, finally, we have an instructor that advocates playing how nearly every pro does, instead of some fantasy textbook method of a perfectly still elbow.
 
Btw, the video referenced in the first post is an excerpt from Max's DVD set. I own the set. It's been a couple of years since I saw it, but I believe he went into more detail about when to use the two different stroke styles.

The thing I remember most was thinking to myself, finally, we have an instructor that advocates playing how nearly every pro does, instead of some fantasy textbook method of a perfectly still elbow.

Now, I don't mean to be sarcastic or mean here, but I can't help but find it odd that a professed C player for 15 years feels qualified to tell the top instructors in the country that they are wrong about what they teach.:confused:
 
This thread has it all, mythology, misinformation and mysticism with a sprinkling of theory.
 
Lee Trevino and Jim Furyk were/are two of the best ball strikers in the history of golf. I've never heard of any instructor trying to teach their swings. As someone else said, they were successful in spite of their poor fundamentals. Using that kind of reference as justification for something is like some grade schooler using "Tommy and Billy are doing it" as an excuse for bad behavior. Some people are simply Savants IMHO. Others become incredibly proficient through mind staggering repetition. There are some pretty speedy players with one arm but that doesn't mean anyone should attempt to learn the game playing with one arm. Since you referenced Keith McCready, have you attempted to pattern your own stroke after his? How's that working for you?

Good point. Don't think I will be trying the side arm thing anytime soon. Just making the same point as CJ; seems like the good players just focus on the tip of the cue, the hand and the cue ball. I know of several good local players who are the same way. Folks say they are natural players but I think maybe they have figured out something some of the rest of us might have missed.
 
Now, I don't mean to be sarcastic or mean here, but I can't help but find it odd that a professed C player for 15 years feels qualified to tell the top instructors in the country that they are wrong about what they teach.:confused:

Aptitude for pool and aptitude for instruction or critique of instruction can be mutually exclusive. One does not require the other. Don't all the instructors say you don't have to play at pro level to teach people? I thought I heard something like that.

KMRUNOUT
 
I like the image of "cutting the cue ball with a scalpel" to get...........

Good point. Don't think I will be trying the side arm thing anytime soon. Just making the same point as CJ; seems like the good players just focus on the tip of the cue, the hand and the cue ball. I know of several good local players who are the same way. Folks say they are natural players but I think maybe they have figured out something some of the rest of us might have missed.

Yes, I like to put players though drills that increase their connection between the hand, TIP and cue ball. This requires a specific PART of the hand, a particular PART of the TIP and of course the TOI of the cue ball.

I suggest the image of "cutting the cue ball with a scalpel" to get extremely precise coming down on the cue ball. It's difficult to explain how this is done if writing, maybe I'll make a short you tube clip since we're done with the Million Dollar Documentary.

'The Game is the Teacher' - Stay in the learning mode, it's amazing with we all can learn.
 
Aptitude for pool and aptitude for instruction or critique of instruction can be mutually exclusive. One does not require the other. Don't all the instructors say you don't have to play at pro level to teach people? I thought I heard something like that.

KMRUNOUT

Yes, I have said that. That does not really fit here though. One is teaching proven methods. (the instructors) The other is saying those proven methods don't work, and the only thing he has to back up his statement is his own playing using his methods. His methods have kept him at a C level for way too long.

Now, some of you want an essay on it, here you go:

No one is saying that the pendulum stroke is the only way to play correctly. Nor, that for each and every player it is the best way to play. There are many roads to the top. Some are much easier than others, some work for some while not for others.

Some want to cite todays top players and then categorically toss out the pendulum stroke because so few SEEM to be using it, or don't even know what it actually is. What those people fail to realize is that if you were to stop-action most players, very often the elbow does not drop before contact with the cb. Then the elbow drops, usually significantly. But all they see is "their elbow drops, so mine should too". While failing to realize what can happen, and usually happens when one drops their elbow before contact significantly.

Some, actually a only a few compared to how many play the game for years, have learned to get their cue straight at contact with the cb no matter how crooked it is before contact. They have their desired repeatability. Some can get that early on, some after a few years of playing, most- never do get that repeatability.

So, should one that after a few years has not yet achieved that repeatability keep on doing what they are doing, hoping that by doing the same thing they will all of sudden one day get different results? Amazingly, most do. Some even argue about how that is the best way to play.

A large part of the game is about repeatability. What is the best way to achieve that? Using many components that all have to be timed just right, or by using one simple movement that does the exact same thing each and every time?

Why do some have so much trouble with the pendulum stroke after diligently trying it for a significant period of time? Actually, the answer to that is really very simple. The fix can be simple or difficult, depending on the person. Usually, it is because they are not set up correctly, so they still are steering the cue while trying not to steer it. That is fixed by a re-alignment so the cue naturally goes straight.

The other problem I see is that the person now trying to switch to a totaly different type of stroke must spend extra mental resources (concentration) to make sure they are doing what they are trying to do. This is a necessary drawback to learning a new way to do anything. The problem arises, when they fail to eventually incorporate the new pattern into their subconscious and make the new pattern automatic. Instead, they always focus on the new pattern. So, they end up trying to focus on several things at once (very hard to do if not impossible) while playing, and then blame the failure of their game on the new thing and not on where it actually belongs. That is, their failure to incorporate the new thing and then not think about it, but just let it happen like you want it to.

So, for the masses, that have been doing the elbow drop without much success, maybe it's time to try something that gives more repeatability, incorporate it properly, and see what it does for you. When done "training" with it, you may just find that your game has come up a ways.:wink:

As far as dropping the elbow after contact. Go ahead if that is your choice. Just realize that there really is no reason to do so. And, if you do drop, be very, very, careful that your timing is good enough that you don't start dropping before contact. Because when you do do that, you are now incorporating all kinds of other timing issues into your stroke. If your timing was off on one part, why would one want to incorporate more things that require more timing issues??
 
Yes, I like to put players though drills that increase their connection between the hand, TIP and cue ball. This requires a specific PART of the hand, a particular PART of the TIP and of course the TOI of the cue ball.

I suggest the image of "cutting the cue ball with a scalpel" to get extremely precise coming down on the cue ball. It's difficult to explain how this is done if writing, maybe I'll make a short you tube clip since we're done with the Million Dollar Documentary.

'The Game is the Teacher' - Stay in the learning mode, it's amazing with we all can learn.

I totally agree with being very precise with where one hits the cue ball. Care to explain how being that precise fits in with your previous statements of no one being able to hit the center axis of the cb? Which is your whole premise of using TOI?
 
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