Drill to stop elbow drop

mantis99 said:
So Wolven may get a gold star for the night. In looking at the causes of my stroke difficulty, I see 3 things that appear to be contributing. 1. elbow drop. 2. shoulder hiking/elevation when I try to stroke hard. 3. overgripping the cue. I am going to suggest that each of these lead into the other with the shoulder hiking possibly being the initiating factor. My upper trap muscle is often noticeably tight after playing just from hiking it.

I went to the table tonight for a little while and tried moving my bridge hand to the right as suggested above. I found that this caused my right hip to rotate back moving my butt out of the way and caused my shoulder to rotate back into a position where it could not really hike up. It also caused my elbow to fall into a much more natural feeling position instead of having to force myself to draw it up. Hitting balls with hard draw met with better results without me jumping the CB at all. I try not to get too excited about a short period of improvement because every time I think this is solved, it reappears the next time I play. This did feel noticeably different though.

I plan on doing some video of this stroke and comparing it to the video Scott took of me when he gave me a lesson to see if they are close overall.
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I'm glad to be able to help.
You will find that you will revert once in a while but you will now know what is happening.
Even on little strokes the alignment I showed will make a difference.
One of problems with pure pendulum and no elbow drop is lack of feedback on correct shooting plane.
Let gravity be your friend. :)

I’m no expert on ulnar’s and radial deviations and what have you but post #77 by Celtic is true.
 
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One of the problem with these types of threads is what shot is being talked about. Not all shots can be stroked the same way.

A picture is worth a thousand words so these two pic are worth 2 thousand. Why because they are real world ball layouts and not setup drills. These two shots were the results of rolling all 15 balls out there and playing the balls where they are.

These two shots show several concepts.

Everything about the stance and stroke starts with where the balls are placed on the table.

The phrase "keeping the cue level" is wrong. There is no way to have a level cue on these two shots. What you do is stroke straight regardless of the angle of attack the cue has on the CB.

There are shots with limited follow through which greatly affects how you stroke. Jacked up shot down over a ball does allow much room to let the tip of the cue to arc downward as some have said. Actually, both positions limit this. But you can always stroke straight.

In reality, the one jacked up, over the ball, you shoot as if using follow and let the tip of the cue arc up as you stroke.

There are so many shooting positions that basically kills any idea of any standardize way of shooting.
 
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Duckie you are indeed correct in that some shots will require a swooping type of stroke due to limited room and cue elevation.... In practice I likely always use an attack angle that is not level and even some changes in stroke plane if I am having to deal with reality....

With that said I think that it is a necessity to be able to control the cue, wrist, and elbow so that you always know where the cuetip is and what path it is taking.... In this instance the OP is dropping it either subconsciously or unconsciously... Which lends itself to think there is an underlying flaw....

Pool is not played in a vacuum where there is no interference to your setup. Playing the game you have to bring it however you get it done...

In practice we can eliminate many variables and try to create the vacuum. Over time we develop the knowledge of where all the pieces are and the stroke becomes hardwired. The OP will not know how to control the elbow until he has had time and repetitions put in to know neutral. Neutral is the best starting place you can then work in either direction.

Celtic... I agree that over the long haul radial and ulnar deviation is an asset... It allows for a longer arc which generates power... The use if the ulnar deviation as a power adder on it's own is up for debate in the pendulum... In the piston you can use the change from ulnar to radial deviation to generate power... This fact alone explains why many of the pros seem to be hybrids somewhere between the true pendulum and a true piston from shot to shot.....
 
duckie said:
One of the problem with these types of threads is what shot is being talked about. Not all shots can be stroked the same way.

A picture is worth a thousand words so these two pic are worth 2 thousand. Why because they are real world ball layouts and not setup drills. These two shots were the results of rolling all 15 balls out there and playing the balls where they are.

These two shots show several concepts.

Everything about the stance and stroke starts with where the balls are placed on the table.

The phrase "keeping the cue level" is wrong. There is no way to have a level cue on these two shots. What you do is stroke straight regardless of the angle of attack the cue has on the CB.

There are shots with limited follow through which greatly affects how you stroke. Jacked up shot down over a ball does allow much room to let the tip of the cue to arc downward as some have said. Actually, both positions limit this. But you can always stroke straight.

In reality, the one jacked up, over the ball, you shoot as if using follow and let the tip of the cue arc up as you stroke.

There are so many shooting positions that basically kills any idea of any standardize way of shooting.
Click to expand...


I would agree that keep the cue level during the stroke my be technically wrong as a statement....most people will understand the intent of that statement to mean keep the plane of the cue consistent during the,strokes.....A dipping, arching butt end or tip end prior to contact of the cb leads,to inconsistent strokes

Even when jacked up.....probably more so IMO....it is very important to keep the plane of the cue consistent.
 
duckie said:
One of the problem with these types of threads is what shot is being talked about. Not all shots can be stroked the same way.

A picture is worth a thousand words so these two pic are worth 2 thousand. Why because they are real world ball layouts and not setup drills. These two shots were the results of rolling all 15 balls out there and playing the balls where they are.

These two shots show several concepts.

Everything about the stance and stroke starts with where the balls are placed on the table.

The phrase "keeping the cue level" is wrong. There is no way to have a level cue on these two shots. What you do is stroke straight regardless of the angle of attack the cue has on the CB.

There are shots with limited follow through which greatly affects how you stroke. Jacked up shot down over a ball does allow much room to let the tip of the cue to arc downward as some have said. Actually, both positions limit this. But you can always stroke straight.

In reality, the one jacked up, over the ball, you shoot as if using follow and let the tip of the cue arc up as you stroke.

There are so many shooting positions that basically kills any idea of any standardize way of shooting.
Click to expand...


Its particularly these shots though where we need our muscle memory to be able to deliver a consistent movement. As we obviously have to deviate our stance and bridge from normal, we need the cue to still be able to be delivered to the CB as we aim it in the practice strokes.
 
Celtic said:
A huge number of pro players use ulnar and radial deviation in the backstroke and followthrough as they come through the cueball. It adds alot of stroke power and lessens the amount of force required by the larger muscles on every shot. This is why we often here about how pro's seem to get more power and action with less of a stroke then amatures think they should. I don't think I have ever seen a Filipino player shoot without those two particular deviations. When set up properly with a proper stroke those two don't affect the aim of the shot from a side to side sense, they simply affect cue tip height and cue angle when measured from the plane of attack.

The real killer is if a player puts in some flexion, extension, pronation, or supination, all of those are moves that add nothing to a stroke but that can cause serious aiming flaws. That said I have seen ALOT of semi decent players who have a constant flexion position in their stroking arm and Keith McCready and Willie Hoppe have a ton of extension.

I think ulnar and radial deviation are a positive over the long run, they are crucial to create a truly powerful stroke as the top professional male players have. The other wrist movements are negatives or at best issues that have to be learned around.
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I honestly believe that this fact was part of the origin of my difficulties. I noticed that using deviation through the stroke was a key to increasing my draw abilities, and I started emphasizing it during the stroke. This lead to me gripping the cue harder with my last few fingers, trying to snap my wrist more aggressively through the motion which created a quick dip in my cue and of course the CB to jump. Add some shoulder elevation to force the cue also (not on purpose of course), elbow drop and wrist flexion due to a tighter grip and I have a cue dipping down quickly and sometimes veering to the side with my hand hitting my ribs instead of my pec.

The two things that have always helped so far are trying to keep a LOOSE grip and keeping my elbow up. If I can concentrate on keeping my elbow up and the only movement being elbow flexion, then my shoulder stays put and the grip falls in line a little better. Recently, the bridge positioning adjustment seems to have helped, but I have to get back to the table tonight to work on it more and see if it will continue to help.

Good thread so far! Thanks!
 
mantis99 said:
I honestly believe that this fact was part of the origin of my difficulties. I noticed that using deviation through the stroke was a key to increasing my draw abilities, and I started emphasizing it during the stroke. This lead to me gripping the cue harder with my last few fingers, trying to snap my wrist more aggressively through the motion which created a quick dip in my cue and of course the CB to jump.

<snip>

The two things that have always helped so far are trying to keep a LOOSE grip
Click to expand...

The way the pros use that type of deviation is in combination with a grip and stroke where the pinky, ring, and middle finger are removed from the cue in the backstroke and on the follow-through they come back in contact with the cue at the finish almost as if they are "catching" the cue at the finish. It absolutely requires a loose grip, a VERY loose grip.

You can see it pretty clearly in this short video of Bustamente.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKBu9DyknbM

In this video of Efren you can see the loosening and the pinky coming off the cue, but it is less pronouced then Busta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw

You can see Parica do it quite clearly here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r-2dhxkpGQ

Ralf Souquet gives a phenomenal example of it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGSy85Chc3Q

A loose grip and that "release" at the backstroke is absolutely critical to doing this properly and you simply cannot have a tight grip or the whole thing collapses.
 
duckie said:
One of the problem with these types of threads is what shot is being talked about. Not all shots can be stroked the same way.

A picture is worth a thousand words so these two pic are worth 2 thousand. Why because they are real world ball layouts and not setup drills. These two shots were the results of rolling all 15 balls out there and playing the balls where they are.

These two shots show several concepts.

Everything about the stance and stroke starts with where the balls are placed on the table.

The phrase "keeping the cue level" is wrong. There is no way to have a level cue on these two shots. What you do is stroke straight regardless of the angle of attack the cue has on the CB.

There are shots with limited follow through which greatly affects how you stroke. Jacked up shot down over a ball does allow much room to let the tip of the cue to arc downward as some have said. Actually, both positions limit this. But you can always stroke straight.

In reality, the one jacked up, over the ball, you shoot as if using follow and let the tip of the cue arc up as you stroke.

There are so many shooting positions that basically kills any idea of any standardize way of shooting.
Click to expand...

facepalm.jpg
 
95% of the greatest players of all time drop their elbow. If you drop your elbow on takeaway of the cue, you will come up into the cueball and jab or stab at it.

Elbow drop is required to get through the cueball 100%, just not on takeaway of the cue, this is where the elbow needs to not drop at all.

The grip is massively important to help the cue get through the cueball, and in my opinion combining the "V" grip technique i teach and elbow drop you can make the cueball dance and are not limited..
 
Celtic said:
The way the pros use that type of deviation is in combination with a grip and stroke where the pinky, ring, and middle finger are removed from the cue in the backstroke and on the follow-through they come back in contact with the cue at the finish almost as if they are "catching" the cue at the finish. It absolutely requires a loose grip, a VERY loose grip.

You can see it pretty clearly in this short video of Bustamente.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKBu9DyknbM

In this video of Efren you can see the loosening and the pinky coming off the cue, but it is less pronouced then Busta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw

You can see Parica do it quite clearly here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r-2dhxkpGQ

Ralf Souquet gives a phenomenal example of it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGSy85Chc3Q

A loose grip and that "release" at the backstroke is absolutely critical to doing this properly and you simply cannot have a tight grip or the whole thing collapses.
Click to expand...

Evgeny Stalev is the most clear example of what you are talking about. Almost any player use that tecnique but if you watch Stalev he romoves his pinky, ring, and middle finger entirely from his cue during the backstroke. He holds the cue with only two fingers, he basically opens his hand during the back stroke.
Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paCPeRlVaA0
 
Celtic said:
The tip will be at it's highest point at contact with a no elbow drop stroke, it takes a parabolic path through the cueball. This is why it is so natural for people to drop the elbow, it makes the cue maintain a more consistent path through the cueball.

If you want to make sure your elbow is not moving you need to make sure that tip is going downward on the followthrough, if it is not then you are dropping your elbow.
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I can somewhat see what you're getting at here, and indeed when I watch excellent players up close it seems like the shaft of their cue bends on the follow-through (this is especially obvious with pros' breaks) for low ball hits. Is this what you're referring to, and if so, how dependent is the "effect" on the shaft that a player is using? I have a major elbow drop issue as well and I've tried your suggestion of having the tip go downward on the follow-through but it seems like the table always rejects this motion and it almost feels as if my drop is occurring as a reflex stemming from Newton's 3rd Law. What am I doing wrong that is causing this to happen?
 
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From "Playing Your Best Pool" by Phil Capelle. He's written one or two books about pool.

"As the arm swings forward, the right elbow should drop. The elbow drop begins at contact with the cue ball or slightly after, but never before contact. A high percentage of players, when developing their games, do not need to worry about the elbow drop because it is a natural movement for most people. The elbow drop is a vital component of a fundamentally sound stroke. It helps ensure that the cue will travel on a level and straight line. The elbow drop also helps avoid dipping the cue tip into the cue ball which is critical on draw shots."

Oh my, now what to do with your elbow.....

Get this book, best money you can ever spend.....
 
Neil said:
Phil has some great books out there, but that does not mean to take everything he says as gospel. This is a perfect example of him being flat out wrong about something. Science has proven it. It's been proven on here over and over. It doesn't even make any sense when you know what is really happening. But, go ahead and believe it if you want to.;)
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can you provide some evidence? I'm talking about dropping the elbow after contacting the cueball. I also think staying down on the shot is overrated ( i stay down on my shots tho) because as we know the tip is contacting the cueball for something like 0,001sec so you could jump up in the air when you strike the cueball without changing cueball path or reactions.
 
Neil said:
Phil has some great books out there, but that does not mean to take everything he says as gospel. This is a perfect example of him being flat out wrong about something. Science has proven it. It's been proven on here over and over. It doesn't even make any sense when you know what is really happening. But, go ahead and believe it if you want to.;)
Click to expand...

The only thing that has been proven is that pro players are elbow droppers.
But I will give you that ‘no elbow’ drop is always necessary if you are aligning incorrectly.

Anyway, anyone ever considered amputation?
 
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