Drill to stop elbow drop

accelerate through the cueball, not decelerate.

A golfer doesn't stop the golf club at the golf ball he continues through the stroke.

Same goes for a tennis player, he continues extend the arm fully. watch nadal and federer, and you will see why they have take the game to new levels, its called hitting through the ball 100% full extension, to do this you need to drop the elbow. so saying it has no effect because the cueball has gone is nonsense, its about the timing of the shot and not quitting during the stroke.
 
lfigueroa said:
This may be true is you are using a very low i.e. snooker-style stance. Many pool players use a more upright stance.

Lou Figueroa
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Not sure what you're referring to. 95% of all pool-playing pros drop their elbow and that's a fact. Watching youtube videos, it's REALLY hard to find a pro who plays with a pinned elbow. Pinned elbows are the exception, not the rule.

That said, there are good arguments to having a pinned elbow. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that nearly all the pros drop their elbow after contact.
 
Neil said:
I totally agree with you on not to decellerate. But, you don't need to drop your elbow to do that. ;) Think about it Lee, what you do AFTER contact can have zero affect on the shot. It's what you do BEFORE contact that matters. And even the top pros say NOT to drop the elbow before contact!

You want to equate not dropping the elbow after contact to deceleration before contact. That is not true. You do not slow the cue down. You finish your follow through just like the elbow droppers do. You just do it on the natural angle, not a different one.
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Hi Neil, i have almost finished my coaching book, and i make a point in there on the elbow drop, and how it should not drop before contact, or you will jab/stab at the cueball. In my opinion with a pendulum stroke you can quit on the shot and the timing can be off, sending vibrations down the cue, which transfers to the cueball, then the object ball making it judda at the pocket at times. harder to explain, easier to show. I showed spidey this.
 
I have reduced my elbow dropping, not eliminated it. I THINK some of my elbow dropping came when I was unsure of my stroke and I decelerated as I was going through the cue ball and this may have been causing some of my problems.

I do see some of the BEST players dropping their elbows quite frequently and I can't really tell if they are dropping their elbow before during or after contact with the cueball. All I know is they do it and run out from everywhere. Me, I struggle and so reducing the elbow drop has increased my potting accuracty and would guess it would for most smucks.

I know that elbow droppers are BETTER players. If I ever develop my timing and stroke to the point where I drop my elbow and it helps me to stay online better, I will be doing so at the first opportunity.

There are going to be some really big name players at this weekend's HUMONGOUS CALCUTTA BAR TABLE TOURNAMENT in Lafayette, LA at White diamonds. For those of you interested in seeing if the best bar table players drop their elbows while playing on the bar boxes, you can tune into the PPV Livestream this weekend by clicking here.

This tournament is already sold out with one or two dozen people on the WAITING LIST.
 
Neil said:
Uh, you did in your post. The tip is only on the cb for .001 sec., or about a 1/16th of an inch or less. The shot is done then, the cb is gone. Lowering your elbow at that point won't have any more effect than raising your leg will.
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so if a player feels dropping his elbow is more comfortable for him there is no reason on not doing it.
 
Neil said:
Yes, most of the top players DO drop their elbow AFTER contact. MOST will also agree that you should NOT drop your elbow BEFORE contact.

Now, here's the deal- there is nothing wrong with dropping your elbow AFTER contact. For a lot of people, it just plain seems more natural to do, to try and keep the cue on the line as long as you are moving the cue. But, it is NOT necessary to do so. (drop the elbow)

Many players, not the top players, have a serious problem with elbow dropping because either they don't know NOT to do it before contact, or they are off on their timing and accidentally do it before contact. So, when teaching someone how to do it, why add a potential problem with the elbow dropping when it is not a necessary or beneficial thing to do? Why not just eliminate it altogether and avoid any problems with it? Dropping the elbow is just something else that can go wrong with the stroke, so why even do it?

Now, if you are doing it, and not having a problem with it, then, quite obviously, it's not a problem. The top players obviously don't have a problem with it. But.... if it IS a problem, then simply eliminate it altogether!
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I agree with you Neil. The less moving parts the better. I had the opportunity to work with Stan Shuffett last year and learned about the pendulum stroke. But I've also noticed that almost all of the top players drop their elbow after contact. I don't think you can become a good player by dropping your elbow before contact.

I tried to work on my own stroke by not dropping my elbow and following straight through to my chest. My stroke seemed straighter and I was able to do the up and down drill with the cueball with a higher success rate than with dropping my elbow. But, my problem was with controlling the cue ball. When I played using a pendulum stroke the cue ball reacted differently than using my dropped elbow stroke. So, I've stayed with dropping the elbow. I teach new students the pendulum stroke but also educate them that dropping the elbow isn't bad as long as it is after contact.

Darryl
 
Here are lists of possible elbow-drop pros and cons (from my elbow drop resource page):
possible advantages:

  • if the elbow is dropped before tip contact, it might make it easier to get more cue speed with less overall effort, and more smoothly.
  • if the timing and coordination of the elbow and shoulder are good, the cue tip can be made to move in a straight line over the entire stroke. This could help some people maintain truer aim and sighting and hit the desired point on the CB more consistently.
  • since the elbow doesn't approach maximum elbow flex (as it can with a pendulum stroke), elbow drop might result in less strain and discomfort for some people.
  • it helps encourage a more complete, more level (piston-like), and unobstructed follow-through, especially with shots requiring more cue speed.
  • it doesn't result in the grip hand or forearm hitting a firm stop (e.g., on the chest).
  • it looks smoother, and many people think it looks better.
  • many of the pros do it, and people like emulating the pros.
  • many people find the elbow-drop stroke more natural.

possible disadvantages:

  • it can be difficult to control the coordinated motion of the shoulder and elbow required to achieve the desired tip contact point.
  • if the elbow is dropped before tip contact by accident (or by too much), the tip will hit the CB higher than intended (and the cue might bang into the rail).
  • with elbow motion, it can be more difficult for some people to keep the cue moving along the desired line (e.g., if the elbow also tends to move sideways as it is moving down).
  • it can take a much longer time to master and be consistent with an elbow-drop stroke.

There are certainly valid points on both sides of the debate.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Neil said:
Uh, you did in your post. The tip is only on the cb for .001 sec., or about a 1/16th of an inch or less. The shot is done then, the cb is gone. Lowering your elbow at that point won't have any more effect than raising your leg will.
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Is a followthrough on a golf swing pointless as well? Should golfers be trying to halt their swings immediately after contact? I mean, it is "after" contact, so what is the point of the followthrough?

It's what you do BEFORE contact that matters.
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No, what matters most on the actual stroke is what happens "through" contact, the period not only before, but during, and immediately after. The way you finish the stroke after contact is critical to having the proper cue motion at the time of contact.
 
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Mr600 said:
Everybody can run balls. Flip your elbow, twist your elbow, people do it all sorts of ways.

The difference is in the knowledge of the game, and your placement of the cueball.

End of thread.
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Not even close.... You can read all of the books you want to get your knowledge of the game but with a crappy inconsistent stroke your cueball placement is only going to be consistent if you get BIH..

Now for good players, they can get away with doing all sorts of things on a short term, one shot here or there, basis..... One of the things that developing sound fundamentals does is to create a solid foundation where you can start to feel and know where the cuetip is and what it is doing at all times..... Without a baseline of consistent feedback most people will never be able to do this.....

I can flip my elbow, drop it early before contact, twist my wrist and do a myriad of other things and still make balls. As soon as I am doing things like this all of the time I lose my ability to get away with doing them at all because I will lose the consistent feedback that is part of the basis for knowing where the cuetip is ingrained...

I do stroke drills to build the perfect stroke... I use this stroke every chance I get and when something forces me to deviate from it
I have it covered... Deviating all of the time will lead to flaws that will take great effort or an instructor's help to fix... Even the pros will seek out instructors or have other pros look at their stroke if they feel like they have picked up a hitch or flaw that is interfering with their mental and tactile connection to the cue tip..
 
Celtic said:
No, what matters most on the actual stroke is what happens "through" contact, the period not only before, but during, and immediately after. The way you finish the stroke after contact is critical to having the proper cue motion at the time of contact.
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This is exactly the point of following through the cue ball. Complete your stroke because preparing not to complete your stroke changes the way you impact the ball. It's the same thing (as someone mentioned earlier in the thread) as staying down on the shot. If you jump up right after contact, obviously your movement isn't going to affect the shot. The problem is that your body's/mind's preparation for movement is affecting your shot prior to your movement, so the fact that you're going to move changes your shot.

On th'other hand, reading this thread I've finally figured out what the hell a "piston stroke" is, and realized that's the way I cued the ball for the first 15 years I was playing. I didn't learn the pendulum stroke until three years ago, and now I know why I have issues maintaining it. Now I'm thinking of going back to the piston stroke.
 
Funny, I've been doing drills lately to practice the elbow drop. Feels great. Not on all shots of course, only some --- and both prior to and after tip impact.
 
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FranCrimi said:
That's pretty funny because I've been doing drills lately to practice the elbow drop. Feels great. Not on all shots of course, only some --- and both prior to and after tip impact.
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:smile:

when im back in america, can show you if you want fran
 
Neil said:
Yes, most of the top players DO drop their elbow AFTER contact. MOST will also agree that you should NOT drop your elbow BEFORE contact.

Now, here's the deal- there is nothing wrong with dropping your elbow AFTER contact. For a lot of people, it just plain seems more natural to do, to try and keep the cue on the line as long as you are moving the cue. But, it is NOT necessary to do so. (drop the elbow)

Many players, not the top players, have a serious problem with elbow dropping because either they don't know NOT to do it before contact, or they are off on their timing and accidentally do it before contact. So, when teaching someone how to do it, why add a potential problem with the elbow dropping when it is not a necessary or beneficial thing to do? Why not just eliminate it altogether and avoid any problems with it? Dropping the elbow is just something else that can go wrong with the stroke, so why even do it?

Now, if you are doing it, and not having a problem with it, then, quite obviously, it's not a problem. The top players obviously don't have a problem with it. But.... if it IS a problem, then simply eliminate it altogether!
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Dropping the elbow is just a natural end of motion.
The fact that people have to be thought not to drop it sort implies it.

I don’t care if the elbow is dropped before/after or not at all. I would say no elbow drop is good on shots requiring little CB movement, and it can be very accurate.
On shots requiring more action, draw shots, etc. elbow drop is the way to go.
Before contact elbow drop can be problematic if done wrong and probably should not be encouraged but if someone is already there and has good results than it is hard to argue with what works.

I think that 99% of all players start the game without coaching. Most will never seek assistance.
A few players will get help after considerable time of play and some traits will already be ingrained.
 
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