Dropping your elbow

[ENGLISH!]

It's rather obvious you aren't actually looking for answers, since this topic has been discussed to death on here. And everyone of your claims have been shown to be just that, claims. With no basis in fact. Yet, here you are again saying the same old stuff. One has to wonder what you are doing here asking the same questions when you don't want answers to them.

For those that do want the answers, they are here- http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=331440

Well, while others understand the simple fact that when one side of a seesaw goes up the other side goes down...

& while very many, if not most all, understand that a computer with all of the scientific formulas programed into it can certainly be more accurate than a piece of wood with pencil on it, even though that was a rather good attempt,

you seem to be stuck in the stone age & would rather put your faith in the like over the science that you so often champion, at least when it suits your purpose.

May God Bless You, Neil.

PS I'm also sorry that you don't seem to understand what it is to ask a rhetorical question.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

I like the ones who preach: As long as it's after contact, it's okay.

It's when you drop your elbow before contact that the really interesting stuff happens. It can be a really good thing on some shots as long as it's done well and with intent.

Fran... Most of your replies to questions are very informative. Dropping the elbow for
many players is not done well, or with intent, and interesting stuff really does happen.
When dropping the elbow before CB contact, their cue could, or could not be aligned.

As far as preaching goes.. I've always believed in elbow drop after the hit, not before.
I think holding the shoulder up eliminates most elbow drop... without thinking about it.
.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

is it the same, results wise, if the tip moves on a straight line while in contact with the ball vs moving on an arc while in contact with the ball?

Yes, for practical purposes in pool.

is it easier to be precise with a straight moving cue & tip or one where the cue stick is changing orientation & the tip curving down?

That's the wrong question. It's easiest to have a straight moving cue & tip at the bottom of a pendulum swing. It's hardest with a moving elbow.

I'm not really looking for actual answers from you

.
I'm not really answering you.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

It's when you drop your elbow before contact that the really interesting stuff happens. It can be a really good thing on some shots as long as it's done well and with intent.

Such as what??

Elbow drop, along with body lift and shoulder activation, certainly offers advantages with extreme power shots like a power break (see the videos and info on the power break technique advice resource page).

And for normal shots, two possible advantages of elbow drop before CB contact are listed on the advantages of elbow drop list. Here they are:

- If the elbow is dropped before tip contact, it might make it easier to get more cue speed with less overall effort, and more smoothly.
- If the timing and coordination of the elbow and shoulder are good, the cue tip can be made to move in a straight line over the entire stroke. This could help some people maintain truer aim and sighting and hit the desired point on the CB more consistently.

However, I too am curious what Fran has to add.

Regards,
Dave

 

[The Renfro]

Elbow drop, along with body lift and shoulder activation, certainly offers advantages with extreme power shots like a power break (see the videos and info on the power break technique advice resource page).

And for normal shots, two possible advantages of elbow drop before CB contact are listed on the advantages of elbow drop list. Here they are:

- If the elbow is dropped before tip contact, it might make it easier to get more cue speed with less overall effort, and more smoothly.
- If the timing and coordination of the elbow and shoulder are good, the cue tip can be made to move in a straight line over the entire stroke. This could help some people maintain truer aim and sighting and hit the desired point on the CB more consistently.

However, I too am curious what Fran has to add.

Regards,
Dave

Careful Dave you will be labeled a heretic You will end up creating a pandemonium..... OH WAIT!!! you already have LOL

 

[Neil]

Careful Dave you will be labeled a heretic You will end up creating a pandemonium..... OH WAIT!!! you already have LOL

View attachment 381053

Apparently you haven't bothered to read post #21.

 

[Mikjary]

Fran,

I 'd like to hear and discuss your statement. It sounds interesting.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Careful Dave you will be labeled a heretic You will end up creating a pandemonium..... OH WAIT!!! you already have LOL

View attachment 381053

LOL :thumbup: View attachment 381059

Best,
Mike

 

[Petros Andrikop]

So this is elbow drop thread number? I've lost count....

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, for practical purposes in pool.

That's the wrong question. It's easiest to have a straight moving cue & tip at the bottom of a pendulum swing. It's hardest with a moving elbow.

.
I'm not really answering you.

pj
chgo

We could play back & forth for quite some time to no good purpose but...

You & I both know that a true pendulum has nothing to do with the arm of a human being moving a cue stick in as near a linear straight line as possible.

It's about biomechanics. I know of no real biomechanical studies in regards to what would be best for that task.

That being lacking, there are merely opinions as to what would actually be the best method.

The human hand & shoulder are rather complex as is the pronation & supination of the forearm. They are that way for a variety of reasons. To try to 'dumb down' a complex mechanism does not always yield the best results, especially when the mind knows that it has a mechanism available for normal use & perhaps is wondering why it can't use it.

I also wonder why so many of the great & very good players of the past did not naturally gravitate to what is the 'full pendulum swing of today'. It would seem since they were not told to use any particular method that they would, sort of as 'evolution' would dictate, just naturally go to the method that worked best.

RJ
NO,La.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Fran,

I 'd like to hear and discuss your statement. It sounds interesting.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Perhaps we could get on a 3, 4, or 5 way conference call.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[ctyhntr]

Don't worry. No one bothers to use the search feature, so it'll likely get posted again next month. You may have to wait until after the posts bashing Super Billiards Expo, Earl, the new show on TruTV, and APA Singles to subside.

So this is elbow drop thread number? I've lost count....

 

[Neil]

We could play back & forth for quite some time to no good purpose but...

You & I both know that a true pendulum has nothing to do with the arm of a human being moving a cue stick in as near a linear straight line as possible.
Who ever said it did, and why should that matter at all?
It's about biomechanics. I know of no real biomechanical studies in regards to what would be best for that task.
Then why even bring it up? Just another red herring.
That being lacking there are merely opinions as to what would actually be the best method.
Not true at all.
The human hand & shoulder are rather complex as is the pronation & supination of the forearm. They are that way for a variety of reasons. To try to 'dumb down' a complex mechanism does not always yield the best results, especially when the mind knows that it has a mechanism available for normal use & perhaps is wondering why it can't use it.
That doesn't even make any sense.
I also wonder why so many of the great & very good players of the past did not naturally gravitate to what is the 'full pendulum swing of today'. It would seem since they were not told to use any particular method that they would, sort of as 'evolution' would dictate, just naturally go to the method that worked best.

RJ
NO,La.

And yet, most of them don't drop before contact on most shots. Go figure. Maybe they know something you refuse to admit.

 

[Pidge]

It really doesn't matter if you drop your elbow prior to contact, after contact or not at all. All that matters is that you hit the white where you want. People like to argue on the subject because, well, they believe their way is the best. This kind of mentality holds people back. Not having a willingness to learn new things and giving yourself a chance to improve is their loss. Try both. You will naturally have an elbow drop at some point or another or you wont. Stick with what you naturally do. I never had a natural elbow drop at any stage of the cue motion but when I saw Ronnie O'Sullivan play when I was younger I thought the reason he struck the ball so well was because he dropped the elbow so I tried dropping my elbow. Held my development back for about 6 months. Big mistake. I wasn't meant to drop my elbow, I just wish I knew this back then. Some people aren't naturally meant to keep the elbow fixed, again, don't waste time trying it. Do what ever it takes to hit the white where you lined up to hit.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I do get the sensation that I'm shooting "out of my chest"

If your elbow drops your shoulder moves...
Keep the shoulder up and hinge the elbow.

Hit with your forearm. Don't push with the shoulder.
One hinge point... One straight stroke. Again IMO

.

Ronnie O'Sullivan thinks of hitting the cue ball with his elbow.....many people can benefit from trying this technique, it works for me and many I've suggested it to over the last year.

All sports I've participated in require a precise elbow movement (golf, tennis, baseball, basketball). I've found that many players don't know how to position their elbow in FRONT of their body properly. The pool stroke is so much easier when there's an attempt to keep it in front of your line of sight. This isn't literal, however, I do get the sensation that I'm shooting "out of my chest" (or the center of my body).

 

[Neil]

It really doesn't matter if you drop your elbow prior to contact, after contact or not at all. All that matters is that you hit the white where you want. People like to argue on the subject because, well, they believe their way is the best. This kind of mentality holds people back. Not having a willingness to learn new things and giving yourself a chance to improve is their loss. Try both. You will naturally have an elbow drop at some point or another or you wont. Stick with what you naturally do. I never had a natural elbow drop at any stage of the cue motion but when I saw Ronnie O'Sullivan play when I was younger I thought the reason he struck the ball so well was because he dropped the elbow so I tried dropping my elbow. Held my development back for about 6 months. Big mistake. I wasn't meant to drop my elbow, I just wish I knew this back then. Some people aren't naturally meant to keep the elbow fixed, again, don't waste time trying it. Do what ever it takes to hit the white where you lined up to hit.

Try reading post #21. No one is insisting that dropping the elbow is inherently bad. If you would bother to notice, all of the arguing about it is because some people want to make statements that just aren't true. Like you have above.

Why some on here feel they always have to "take sides" on any issue, without comprehending what is actually stated about topics, is beyond me.

Just because I spent time describing how CTE works, all of a sudden I'm put into a "CTE camp" that must insist that any other method is not as good or doesn't work. Same here with the pendulum stroke. Just because I have stated in the past the benefits of it, and why instructors teach it, then I must be against dropping the elbow at any time for any reason. Few bother to even read what is actually said. It's just plain ridiculous.

You guys have at it. No point posting anything when most on here don't bother reading anyways. Have fun.

 

[CJ Wiley]

everyone has a different body type, and this effects their individual style

It really doesn't matter if you drop your elbow prior to contact, after contact or not at all. All that matters is that you hit the white where you want. People like to argue on the subject because, well, they believe their way is the best. This kind of mentality holds people back. Not having a willingness to learn new things and giving yourself a chance to improve is their loss. Try both. You will naturally have an elbow drop at some point or another or you wont. Stick with what you naturally do. I never had a natural elbow drop at any stage of the cue motion but when I saw Ronnie O'Sullivan play when I was younger I thought the reason he struck the ball so well was because he dropped the elbow so I tried dropping my elbow. Held my development back for about 6 months. Big mistake. I wasn't meant to drop my elbow, I just wish I knew this back then. Some people aren't naturally meant to keep the elbow fixed, again, don't waste time trying it. Do what ever it takes to hit the white where you lined up to hit.

That's correct, everyone has a different body type, and this effects their individual style. It's best to recognize what a player's natural tendency is and strive to make it most productive. The essential thing is to enable the player to reach their maximum acceleration EXACTLY at the moment of contact (the moment of truth is the moment of contact).

I've found that the shape of your wrists and forearms has a direct influence on these different playing characteristics. It's also true in the golf swing, although there are certainly common denominators, many pros have slightly different swing planes.

I actually use a tennis/golf style grip, which gives me certain advantages, however, I've had to study the stoke extensively to determine how to utilize it in the most effective way. The grip and elbow movement are connected in a way that's vital to understand. imho

 

[ENGLISH!]

Jack Nicklaus was probably the greatest clutch putter of all time. Maybe that's just because he had more clutch opportunities.

Anyway, what I found very odd was that virtually no one ever copied the way he putted.

He putts with a piston like pushing action of his right forearm with the whole arm moving much as one piece, from the grip to the elbow. To do that, 'properly' requires a different grip on the putter than most that swung or rocked the putter.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The essential thing is to enable the player to reach their maximum acceleration EXACTLY at the moment of contact (the moment of truth is the moment of contact). ...

Do you mean velocity rather than acceleration?

 

[SilverCue]

Do you mean velocity rather than acceleration?

He may mean near max velocity while accelerating