Dual stage tournaments are superior to true double elimination

[iusedtoberich]

My opinion:

After watching and playing pool since the 90s, the more recent takeover of the dual stage tournament is far superior to true double elimination. Both from a "watching the pros" standpoint, to the "local level me personally competing" standpoint.

The dual stage I'm referring to are double elimination up to about 1/4th of the field remaining, and then single elimination the remaining. The single elimination is usually redrawn based on tour rankings.

From a fan watching pros perspective, the players get two chances to dwindle the field. The players who survive that are the best of the best. Now the "real tournament" can begin in the single elimination stage. It's also crystal clear who is left in the event, who plays who next, etc. All that is shown at a glance on a simple bracket.

On a local "me playing in event" level, I do like the "second chance" the double elimination provides, especially for weaker players like me. I get my money's worth. On the other hand, the loser's bracket takes FOREVER, and slows down the whole thing. The difference in time taken for a double elimination vs a single elimination bracket is like 7 hours for a typical single day monthly type local event. The event I just played in was 28 players, race to 7 winners/5 losers, and ended at 1:30am after starting at 1pm. I've been to bigger fields that end at 5am. It's also asinine playing a "true finals double elimination". You often have the same 2 players playing 3 matches in a row. The hotseat, the first set of the final, the second set of the finals.

It's all just too much. Takes forever, the fans don't want to stay until the end, the players don't even want to play and often chop the finals, and the flow of the bracket is convoluted.

I wish ALL pro events did the two stage, and I'd go as far as all local events should either be full single elimination, or a two stage. Get rid of full double elimination forever!

 

[alphadog]

Why do events start at 1pm?
There are two 9's in the day use them both.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Why do events start at 1pm?
There are two 9's in the day use them both.

That's if you can get the venue to open that early. We've had the problem.

 

[tomatoshooter]

It's also asinine playing a "true finals double elimination". You often have the same 2 players playing 3 matches in a row. The hotseat, the first set of the final, the second set of the finals.

I agree. When playing sets, a true double elimination final is anticlimactic. It just doesn't flow well. A single elimination final can mean that if you lose the hotseat match, you get a mulligan.

One of the weekly tournaments I sometimes play is 9 ball, race to 4, single elimination. It's nice on a weeknight, if I'm not playing well I can go home instead of slogging through a second set.

 

[ShootingArts]

Well, definitely a different strokes thing! I have never played a two stage match, don't want to, to be honest. Shane can play the local open event, pet the pooch against a local hot dog that is all fired up to be playing the world's best, lose, and it is no big deal. He and one forth of the field will all be in the same boat after awhile. Might seem far-fetched but back a hunnert years ago I locked the guy that went on to be named player of the decade out for an hour or more, until he quit.

I have played a lot of single elimination finals and can't remember losing one so not sour grapes. Just the basic unfairness of some people have to lose twice to be eliminated, some only once.

Hu

 

[alphadog]

Well, definitely a different strokes thing! I have never played a two stage match, don't want to, to be honest. Shane can play the local open event, pet the pooch against a local hot dog that is all fired up to be playing the world's best, lose, and it is no big deal. He and one forth of the field will all be in the same boat after awhile. Might seem far-fetched but back a hunnert years ago I locked the guy that went on to be named player of the decade out for an hour or more, until he quit.

I have played a lot of single elimination finals and can't remember losing one so not sour grapes. Just the basic unfairness of some people have to lose twice to be eliminated, some only once.

Hu

And the luck of the draw enters the mix again. Or if seeded dbl jeopardy.

 

[ShootingArts]

And the luck of the draw enters the mix again. Or if seeded dbl jeopardy.

Tru dat! Luck of the draw can seem most amazingly unlucky sometimes. However, if they aren't cheating the draw which I have seen done many times, it is luck. The double/single elimination design or the single elimination finals aren't luck, they are the format of the event.

Seeding is double edged sword the way I have seen it done. It almost insures that all seeded players will make it through the first round, and meet another seeded player in the second round! Maybe third round if you work hard to spread them.

Hu

 

[Island Drive]

My opinion:

After watching and playing pool since the 90s, the more recent takeover of the dual stage tournament is far superior to true double elimination. Both from a "watching the pros" standpoint, to the "local level me personally competing" standpoint.

The dual stage I'm referring to are double elimination up to about 1/4th of the field remaining, and then single elimination the remaining. The single elimination is usually redrawn based on tour rankings.

From a fan watching pros perspective, the players get two chances to dwindle the field. The players who survive that are the best of the best. Now the "real tournament" can begin in the single elimination stage. It's also crystal clear who is left in the event, who plays who next, etc. All that is shown at a glance on a simple bracket.

On a local "me playing in event" level, I do like the "second chance" the double elimination provides, especially for weaker players like me. I get my money's worth. On the other hand, the loser's bracket takes FOREVER, and slows down the whole thing. The difference in time taken for a double elimination vs a single elimination bracket is like 7 hours for a typical single day monthly type local event. The event I just played in was 28 players, race to 7 winners/5 losers, and ended at 1:30am after starting at 1pm. I've been to bigger fields that end at 5am. It's also asinine playing a "true finals double elimination". You often have the same 2 players playing 3 matches in a row. The hotseat, the first set of the final, the second set of the finals.

It's all just too much. Takes forever, the fans don't want to stay until the end, the players don't even want to play and often chop the finals, and the flow of the bracket is convoluted.

I wish ALL pro events did the two stage, and I'd go as far as all local events should either be full single elimination, or a two stage. Get rid of full double elimination forever!

It's all just too much. Takes forever,

You nailed it.......IU2Brich.

My WBT.com creation, is this.
I looked at the critical things ALL POOL PLAYERS HATE when in a tournament.

1. Gas $$ to and from event.
2. If your 3 hrs or more away from a 2 Day event.....$$$$$ ROOM
3. Eating out $$$ Fri$/Sat$/Sun$ Then calcutta FRIDAY PM, so you HAVE to get a rm at least one night.
4. If you make it to the final 16 for Sunday, have to get another....$$$$$ROOM
5. If you lose your first match/losers side. on SUNDAY....your one out of the money.
6. I played in Denver 96 player event, a mth ago, this EXACT scenario happened.
And the TD video man could not tell you, ever when your next match was up.

I'm currently talking to sponsors, end of year budgets and next yrs budgets are in cue. I workin' on it.



WBT, All players play every session, dbl elimination.
I can have a 100 players more/less/depending on table count, start Sat. at 11 am, and finals are 8pm.
If you get knocked out in the second round, almost 1/4 of the rooms tables open up for rent.
If you make it to the FINAL TABLE of 8 player, where all the cash is paid out, thru the play Sessions, you might have met and now know em by name, at least 10 people you never really knew.
By mid afternoon most all room tables are opening up for the two and outs. NO LATE NIGHTs
By dinner time 90% of the table are available for rent to gamble or the Sat Night Crowd regulars.


Imagine this. 4 guys jump into car, drive 3 hrs arrive for Sat. only play. Begins at 11.
You all play some stay in, some get knocked out.
One of you 4 make it to the final table/Like World Poker Tour/All the cash.
You still get out of there by 10pm, all four of yah.
Drive home.
You could go to a high entry fee event like this, because your splitting gas 4 ways . You packed all your food and drinks in a cooler and NONE of you stayed in a HOTEL/too expensive now to a room for the night.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[justnum]

In college sports all events and some tournaments end same day. Double headers are played as needed.
Billiard championships favor other aspects in the current format, like hotel occupancy.

The working crowd might be able to make it too.

 

[Island Drive]

The regulars on Sat. night who pay the rent and those with dates, who had NO clue a tournament was happening (they are NOT poolplayers) can get a table. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
And do Their thing. Up close, in the action.

 

[garczar]

IMO real 'pros' should play single-elim. from the get-go. Should be just like tennis, you lose you go home.

 

[jasonlaus]

IMO real 'pros' should play single-elim. from the get-go. Should be just like tennis, you lose you go home.

Or single Elim till last 16 or 8 then double - nobody wants to watch the dead $$$, but I wouldn't mind double Elim for guys we actually paid to see

 

[JusticeNJ]

The event I just played in was 28 players, race to 7 winners/5 losers, and ended at 1:30am after starting at 1pm. I've been to bigger fields that end at 5am.

This is one of the main reasons the last two or three guys standing in my area just split the pot and go home.

 

[justnum]

League play with championships is like a two stage format.

Its nice when the top tier of a group advances, then its a best of the best situation.

For a tournament format, two stage formats are for organizations sponsoring teams of players to fill the field.

The WPA has to plan for federation players and it works for their purposes. If an WPA official wanted a hotel to receive a little extra action, then they can stretch the tournament format for some extra grease.

Could you imagine any countries that could benefit from an extended tournament format for the WPA? Whether or not the funding goes to the players in need is another question?

 

[JolietJames]

IMO real 'pros' should play single-elim. from the get-go. Should be just like tennis, you lose you go home.

I'm not saying I disagree but tennis is much more dependent upon fitness and energy levels.
Using today's ratings, a 4.0 tournament may look like a 3.0 vs 4.0 by the time of the finals, with the B side player physically exhausted.
I remember driving 4+ hours to tennis tournaments with a buddy and more often than not drawing each other in the first round.
He was a little better than I was but I always beat him in those matches. He was then forced to wait for me to finish somewhere mid-pack and then the 4+ hour drive home.

I will 2nd the above poster who mentioned coming back for the final day without guaranteed money.
The money should be there for everyone there on the final day.

 

[Dimeball]

My opinion:

After watching and playing pool since the 90s, the more recent takeover of the dual stage tournament is far superior to true double elimination. Both from a "watching the pros" standpoint, to the "local level me personally competing" standpoint.

The dual stage I'm referring to are double elimination up to about 1/4th of the field remaining, and then single elimination the remaining. The single elimination is usually redrawn based on tour rankings.

From a fan watching pros perspective, the players get two chances to dwindle the field. The players who survive that are the best of the best. Now the "real tournament" can begin in the single elimination stage. It's also crystal clear who is left in the event, who plays who next, etc. All that is shown at a glance on a simple bracket.

On a local "me playing in event" level, I do like the "second chance" the double elimination provides, especially for weaker players like me. I get my money's worth. On the other hand, the loser's bracket takes FOREVER, and slows down the whole thing. The difference in time taken for a double elimination vs a single elimination bracket is like 7 hours for a typical single day monthly type local event. The event I just played in was 28 players, race to 7 winners/5 losers, and ended at 1:30am after starting at 1pm. I've been to bigger fields that end at 5am. It's also asinine playing a "true finals double elimination". You often have the same 2 players playing 3 matches in a row. The hotseat, the first set of the final, the second set of the finals.

It's all just too much. Takes forever, the fans don't want to stay until the end, the players don't even want to play and often chop the finals, and the flow of the bracket is convoluted.

I wish ALL pro events did the two stage, and I'd go as far as all local events should either be full single elimination, or a two stage. Get rid of full double elimination forever!

I agree with this thought for the most part... however, I think they switch to single elimination and alter the race too soon. Final 4, at this point switching to single elimination and an extended race would be better. By switching at 64 or 32, it adds some luck factor for the players outside the top 5. Players can get through to the finals, by luck of the draw, an never face the elite guys and I think this contributes to why we are seeing so many different event winners recently. The elite guys, some could say, get screwed, because we all know anyone can catch a gear for one match or some oddity with the ref racking, etc. Also, the fans would benefit by getting to see the very best play more often.
Just my 27 cents...

 

[philly]

My opinion:

After watching and playing pool since the 90s, the more recent takeover of the dual stage tournament is far superior to true double elimination. Both from a "watching the pros" standpoint, to the "local level me personally competing" standpoint.

The dual stage I'm referring to are double elimination up to about 1/4th of the field remaining, and then single elimination the remaining. The single elimination is usually redrawn based on tour rankings.

From a fan watching pros perspective, the players get two chances to dwindle the field. The players who survive that are the best of the best. Now the "real tournament" can begin in the single elimination stage. It's also crystal clear who is left in the event, who plays who next, etc. All that is shown at a glance on a simple bracket.

On a local "me playing in event" level, I do like the "second chance" the double elimination provides, especially for weaker players like me. I get my money's worth. On the other hand, the loser's bracket takes FOREVER, and slows down the whole thing. The difference in time taken for a double elimination vs a single elimination bracket is like 7 hours for a typical single day monthly type local event. The event I just played in was 28 players, race to 7 winners/5 losers, and ended at 1:30am after starting at 1pm. I've been to bigger fields that end at 5am. It's also asinine playing a "true finals double elimination". You often have the same 2 players playing 3 matches in a row. The hotseat, the first set of the final, the second set of the finals.

It's all just too much. Takes forever, the fans don't want to stay until the end, the players don't even want to play and often chop the finals, and the flow of the bracket is convoluted.

I wish ALL pro events did the two stage, and I'd go as far as all local events should either be full single elimination, or a two stage. Get rid of full double elimination forever!

These tournaments get tougher as you get older especially if the tournament is not run smoothly.
Waiting is a killer.

 

[Dimeball]

IMO real 'pros' should play single-elim. from the get-go. Should be just like tennis, you lose you go home.

Respectfully I must disagree. Pool has way too many factors that can alter the outcome. The one that comes to mind to me is the rack, not the break, the rack. Tennis doesn't begin or even have in anyway something so unpredictable. Balls flying everywhere, kisses that cause scratches (which basically means YOU LOST today), it's truly infuriating sometimes the bad fortune that comes the rack. I think it's too risky as the game is played today to have 100% single elimination, I think the amount of competitors would begin to decline and that would be bad for the game...
just my opinion however...

 

[philly]

Respectfully I must disagree. Pool has way too many factors that can alter the outcome. The one that comes to mind to me is the rack, not the break, the rack. Tennis doesn't begin or even have in anyway something so unpredictable. Balls flying everywhere, kisses that cause scratches (which basically means YOU LOST today), it's truly infuriating sometimes the bad fortune that comes the rack. I think it's too risky as the game is played today to have 100% single elimination, I think the amount of competitors would begin to decline and that would be bad for the game...
just my opinion however...

You make some good points but whose fault is it if you scratch?

 

[skogstokig]

direct single elim is a non-starter in big pro pool tournaments. too small payouts, too expensive to travel, pros scattered out all over the globe. circumstances may change but is unlikely to in the near future.

but SE at 64 or 32 is a good compromise. it's still not easy to slug through the loser side, and in the end the fans get to see the cream of the crop play on a clearly defined path to the final