Eagle Eye Takes Aim at 14.1 High Runs

[wrldpro]

Bobby,

Thanks for the reply.

As I said, "kudos to the 'Legends' folks for setting this up. Anything to further 14.1." and "I'll enjoy watching and hope this furthers 14.1."

You are obviously putting a lot of work into this. I thank you for that and genuinely hope it does create more interest in straight pool as I love the game.

It's not surprising that people are discussing the pockets because they do appear to visually differ from standard 5" pockets on a GC, or even from the Brunswick home version I had before I bought my Diamond pro cut. And, since I saw the pockets on the table John Schmidt made his run on within 2 days of the run, I can say that in my opinion the pockets on this table are significantly more accepting of shots that would be a miss on these other tables.

I don't think this makes me a "complainer." In fact, I've bent over backwards to applaud what you are doing. I just hope you guys will adjust the pockets to standard issue to match a GC type table so that these great players you are bringing in are playing on standard equipment that everyone knows and there is a good basis for comparison. I don't claim to have the expertise that accomplished players like you have. But, if you want passionate fans, you know us fans come with our own opinions! I think that's what's actually needed to grow a sport - lot's of fans who care enough to have opinions. I try to offer mine in a constructive way.

Regardless of whether you guys decide to take my humble suggestion, I still thank you for putting this event together. What great performances we've seen from SVB, Ruslan, Earl and now Jayson. I will continue to watch and support, and look forward to what you have planned next! Best.

Thanks for the reply and kind words. To be clear we dont care what table Schmidt has played on and has nothing to do with our event whatsoever so comparing pockets,tables etc. to whatever doesnt matter and his name needs not and will not be in any conversation with our event. We have always said maybe someday we would invite him but he has shot himself to many times with his constant antics and bashing of me.
Do remember there are 2 sides to any story and also our event is not and will not be any type of platform for JS. Good luck to him but after all the messages and screenshots that recently came in to us from his social media rants we are not interested in him ever participating in any Legends high run events, Challenge matches or Tournaments. I hope you enjoy our events and also the Womens event will be coming up and I hope for it to be a success and also we are trying to organize our 1st annual 14.1 Tournament with enough added money to be sanctioned by the WPA. Details will be announced as things get closer.

 

[Shuddy]

I don't think this makes me a "complainer." In fact, I've bent over backwards to applaud what you are doing. I just hope you guys will adjust the pockets to standard issue to match a GC type table so that these great players you are bringing in are playing on standard equipment that everyone knows and there is a good basis for comparison.

Regardless of whether you guys decide to take my humble suggestion

So you’re suggesting that they change the pockets to a standard GC cut, when JS played on a table that wasn’t a GC? Do you have photos of the table with measurements from when JS made his run? Does anyone? What standard did JS use when choosing his table? Do we have a good basis of comparison for that table?

You’re tying yourself in knots man. I get what you’re trying to say, and I’m all for it. However, at this point, it’s useless.

EDIT: In fact, these guys gave us photos of their table with all the details before their event even started. I haven’t followed JS’s accomplishment with complete dedication, but I’ve followed the giant thread quite a lot, and in this day and age, with the ease of sharing information, it’s insane that I haven’t come across a photo of JS’s table with a ruler attached. If I’m wrong, someone please PM me with the photos.

 

[PoolPlayer4]

I don't think this makes me a "complainer." In fact, I've bent over backwards to applaud what you are doing. I just hope you guys will adjust the pockets to standard issue to match a GC type table so that these great players you are bringing in are playing on standard equipment that everyone knows and there is a good basis for comparison.

Regardless of whether you guys decide to take my humble suggestion

So you’re suggesting that they change the pockets to a standard GC cut, when JS played on a table that wasn’t a GC? Do you have photos of the table with measurements from when JS made his run? Does anyone? What standard did JS use when choosing his table? Do we have a good basis of comparison for that table?

You’re tying yourself in knots man. I get what you’re trying to say, and I’m all for it. However, at this point, it’s useless.
EDIT: In fact, these guys gave us photos of their table with all the details before their event even started. I haven’t followed JS’s accomplishment with complete dedication, but I’ve followed the giant thread quite a lot, and in this day and age, with the ease of sharing information, it’s insane that I haven’t come across a photo of JS’s table with a ruler attached. If I’m wrong, someone please PM me with the photos.
-------------------------------------------------------


The pockets on the Rebco I played on at Easy Street Billiards in Monterey, CA two days after John's run looked similar to the pockets on my Brunswick home version (Heritage) and the unmodified GCs I've played on. The pockets here look obviously different. That's what I'm going by. I'm not tied in any knots at all. My position is these pockets differ from the range of pockets in common use. For me, that calls into question the validity of runs on this table. That's how I see it.

It doesn't change the fact that I'm excited to see this event going on and support what these guys are doing. I'd just like to see the pockets corrected.

 

[Shuddy]

So you’re suggesting that they change the pockets to a standard GC cut, when JS played on a table that wasn’t a GC? Do you have photos of the table with measurements from when JS made his run? Does anyone? What standard did JS use when choosing his table? Do we have a good basis of comparison for that table?

You’re tying yourself in knots man. I get what you’re trying to say, and I’m all for it. However, at this point, it’s useless.
EDIT: In fact, these guys gave us photos of their table with all the details before their event even started. I haven’t followed JS’s accomplishment with complete dedication, but I’ve followed the giant thread quite a lot, and in this day and age, with the ease of sharing information, it’s insane that I haven’t come across a photo of JS’s table with a ruler attached. If I’m wrong, someone please PM me with the photos.
-------------------------------------------------------


The pockets on the Rebco I played on at Easy Street Billiards in Monterey, CA two days after John's run looked similar to the pockets on my Brunswick home version (Heritage) and the unmodified GCs I've played on. The pockets here look obviously different. That's what I'm going by. I'm not tied in any knots at all. My position is these pockets differ from the range of pockets in common use. For me, that calls into question the validity of runs on this table. That's how I see it.

It doesn't change the fact that I'm excited to see this event going on and support what these guys are doing. I'd just like to see the pockets corrected.

Yeah fine, but think about it like this:

Legends have posted detailed pictures of their table with measurements included and streamed every single moment of their event.

The same can not be said for JS’s event. We know it was a Rebco table with 5” pockets. I assume it was 9 foot?

You come in and say that based on what you’ve seen on the stream, which is a distorted perspective of a table with brand new cloth and constantly cleaned balls, the pockets don’t look like standard GC pockets and that these 5” pockets look like they play easier than JS’s 5” pockets on a Rebco, which kind of looked more similar to GC pockets than this actual GC.

And you think this calls into question the validity of anything achieved in this event. However, if they conform to some sort of standard you’ve created in your mind based on seeing a Rebco table with pockets that looked more like standard GC pockets, then you’ll be fine with it.

Sorry, how is that not knots?

 

[Texas Carom Club]

The factors are, the pockets, new cloth and very clean slippery balls. This adds up to the pockets playing like they are an inch bigger. That is just a fact.

Still trying to knock everything about what's happening. Just in passive aggressive mode now

 

[PoolPlayer4]

Yeah fine, but think about it like this:

Legends have posted detailed pictures of their table with measurements included and streamed every single moment of their event.

The same can not be said for JS’s event. We know it was a Rebco table with 5” pockets. I assume it was 9 foot?

You come in and say that based on what you’ve seen on the stream, which is a distorted perspective of a table with brand new cloth and constantly cleaned balls, the pockets don’t look like standard GC pockets and that these 5” pockets look like they play easier than JS’s 5” pockets on a Rebco, which kind of looked more similar to GC pockets than this actual GC.

And you think this calls into question the validity of anything achieved in this event. However, if they conform to some sort of standard you’ve created in your mind based on seeing a Rebco table with pockets that looked more like standard GC pockets, then you’ll be fine with it.

Sorry, how is that not knots?

You've contrived several false premises there bro.

One, I have watched hundreds of hours, if not thousands, of pool events on 9 foot tables. And, I've owned 9 foot tables for roughly 40 years. I know what the pockets look like on camera and in person. Most of us avid players and fans do.

Two, they've published an overhead picture of the pockets that show that they're cut different from standard pockets.

Three, it's obvious from watching the shots that some of these would not go on a standard 9 foot table with 5" pockets.

Four, the cloth is no longer brand new. It's been played on for weeks. Even in a few days of tournament play, commentators will note that the table conditions have changed and gotten tighter after the cloth has gotten some play.

Five, the Rebco pockets would be irrelevant except for the fact that as soon as one of these great players puts up a number above 526 or 626, they'll be claiming that is the new record. Given all the controversy that people (some involved in this event) have raised about JS's run, that will immediately make the pockets an issue of dispute.

Six, I didn't say it "calls into question the validity of anything achieved in this event." I said it "calls into question the validity of runs on this table." Many great things are being achieved in this event and by this group of people. I'm focused here on any records that come out of it.

Seven, I'm thrilled these guys are running this event, and very excited about the players who have participated, and am very much looking forward to more great champions participating. And, I believe there is a very good chance that Ruslan, or Jayson, or one of a number of current players could put up a Willie or JS number. I'd like to see that as free from controversy as possible because I respect these players and this event, and most of all, want to see any new record create interest in straight pool, not disgust that we can't even agree on a standard table or show the proper respect due for a run like JS's, or if his record is broken, Jayson's or Ruslan's, or whomever it may be.

So, finally, my position is very simple and free of knots. It seems clear, in my humble opinion, that the pockets are not standard and are significantly more generous than pockets in common use on 9 foot tables with 5 inch pockets. I'd like to see it fixed now, not because I'm complaining about these great players or these fine people who are investing so much of their effort in a great event, but because I want to to preserve the integrity of the event and the record I believe may very well come out of it. And, ultimately, I want that accomplishment to be acclaimed and create interest in straight pool, not be another great controversy that doesn't further the game.

No problem if you disagree. People who love the game can have different opinions. But, with all due acknowledgement of and respect for the people making this great effort and hosting or participating, that's my opinion.

 

[straightline]

That Mosconi did his run on a loose 8 footer dunneed mentioning. oops...

 

[trob]

That Mosconi did his run on a loose 8 footer dunneed mentioning. oops...

It’s been mentioned many times.. the mosconi nut huggers not care.

 

[sammylane12]

The factors are, the pockets, new cloth and very clean slippery balls. This adds up to the pockets playing like they are an inch bigger. That is just a fact.

A whole inch? How is that a fact? You just made that up!

 

[Dead Money]

Knock knock...who's there?...hopefully Jayson Shaw to run more balls today!

 

[lfigueroa]

So I said that the gist of your belief was essentially that you felt that if anybody could have broken Mosconi's record during that time they would have, and that the record was the big incentive and that it wasn't broken not for lack of incentive but for lack of the players being able to break it because they just aren't good enough and Mosconi was just that much above them. You say show me. Well here you go. There are other threads I remember where you are much more explicit about it, but this one makes it clear enough even though you are certain to now do your best to try to wordsmith around it.

john schimdt runs 266

hi everyone, just watched john run 19 racks of 14.1 total of 266 balls on a diamond blue label pro am. it was a real treat , the biggest run ive personally witnessed, and it happened right here at garys victor billiards. he will be in good shape for the mosconi cup !!!!!

forums.azbilliards.com

Also funny, in light of that insanely long thread about John Schmidt breaking the record, the one where you repeatedly state that you have serious doubts that the record breaking run actually happened even though it is on video, and had people people who witnessed it in person, and had some of the most esteemed, knowledgeable and respected members of the pool community who closely analyzed the video and verified the run, and the official authorizing body for the record, the BCA, officially recognizing it as having been proven to be the new record, etc, and none of that was good enough for you, but here you are in post #95 essentially saying that unless there is a good reason not to we should just take people's word's about their high runs. Lol.

john schimdt runs 266

hi everyone, just watched john run 19 racks of 14.1 total of 266 balls on a diamond blue label pro am. it was a real treat , the biggest run ive personally witnessed, and it happened right here at garys victor billiards. he will be in good shape for the mosconi cup !!!!!

forums.azbilliards.com

And here you are in post #78 taking one single person's word about another run that at the time would have beaten the record, yet all John's overwhelming massive evidence somehow wasn't good enough for you. More lol.

john schimdt runs 266

hi everyone, just watched john run 19 racks of 14.1 total of 266 balls on a diamond blue label pro am. it was a real treat , the biggest run ive personally witnessed, and it happened right here at garys victor billiards. he will be in good shape for the mosconi cup !!!!!

forums.azbilliards.com

You would take one single person's word for it when it comes to a run by your exalted hero Mosconi, but for some guy you dislike and don't want to see have the record, for that guy a full video, in person witnesses, official recognition from the governing body over the record, confirmation of the run from some of the most respected and knowledgeable people and pros in the industry, etc, still isn't good enough for you. It's the adult version of closing your eyes and putting your hands over your ears to drown out what somebody is telling you and saying, while rocking back and forth, "not true, not true, not true, not true" simply because you don't want it to be true.

So I decided to put another couple of minutes into it and here is another post from another thread with you being even more explicit about your whole "if they could have they would have but they haven't because they can't" belief just like I had said. And there are plenty of others.

Why has no one beat Mosconi's high run?

Yes there have been unconfirmed runs that may have beat him... Not my question. Why in todays state of the game, when competition is tougher than ever... Why do we not have umpteen players capable of running 500+ balls? Was he really that good? Table conditions? Nobody plays straight pool...

forums.azbilliards.com

Changing topics, and I'm going to quote it because I'm sure it is going to get edited, but here is Harriman saying that he would put a lot more weight on a high run caught on video than he would on Mosconi's run with a signed affidavit. We all know how that turned out. It's amazing how easily humans can deny the truth when they don't like the truth, isn't it?

"I have no room for a table, while I am not a huge believer in technology I do think the camera would be more definitive than 15 people who signed a piece of paper."

Why has no one beat Mosconi's high run?

Yes there have been unconfirmed runs that may have beat him... Not my question. Why in todays state of the game, when competition is tougher than ever... Why do we not have umpteen players capable of running 500+ balls? Was he really that good? Table conditions? Nobody plays straight pool...

forums.azbilliards.com

Your first quote is from someone named vicki h, not me.

In the second quote I address the allegation that Mosconi fouled during his run and point out that that was from an unnamed source.

In the third quote I say that yes, I would take the word of Charlie Ursitti -- who wouldn't? Yet no one of his stature has spoken up about watching John's run in person, in its entirety.

In the fourth quote all I say is that there isn't a 14.1 player on Earth that wouldn't give his left nut to break Mosconi's record. Is there something inaccurate about that?

Your last quote is from Danny, not me.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I don’t get this table comparison stuff. These guys have shown us pictures of the table pockets with measurements. We know that JS played on 5” pockets. The same. We don’t have pictures of his table with measurements as far as I’m aware, but the 5” pockets hasn’t been disputed by anyone involved. I’m pretty sure we all also know that Mosconi set his run on an 8 foot 5” table.

Anyway, you can find pictures of this table’s pockets taken from above with measurements. You can get out your software of choice and measure the angles of the pockets and depth of the shelves. Total transparency from them.

For me personally, I wouldn’t feel quite right about doing anything on a table larger than 4.5”, but I have zero issue with anything accomplished during this event because they have been transparent with everything they are doing, and some dude saying JS’s table felt like it played tighter than this table “appears” to isn’t going to change my mind.

Also keep in mind that the Brunswicks of old had really big pockets with a shallow shelf.

When I was growing up and playing at The Palace and Cochran's in San Francisco I would look like a super star playing on those tables, even though I was just a teenager and hadn't been playing long.

As to Easy Street's tables, they look pretty generous to me. I only bring that up because others have -- our event is not about John though some out there insist on trying to make it so.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mikemosconi]

Everyone on this site who enjoys high level pool and/or the game of 14.1 should, hopefully appreciate these opportunities to watch some of the best in the world play this game- I know that I do. In terms of some of us making a simple observation about playing conditions - well, I will just say, from my own 58 years of playing this game that, yes, I do think it is a legitimate observation, from the screen, that the table seems to play very easy.

I think, to keep this all in perspective, we all can accept the fact that discerning pool aficionados have the right to express what they observe. That being said; we should also all agree that the table is what it is, appreciate the event for what it is, look upon voiced observations as just a part of any normal group setting.

For any obvious complaints about the table set -up - which I think that I only see one or just maybe a few - those should be dismissed because these great players who are normally, today, competing on Diamond pro cuts will see any standard GC pockets alone as being rather easy.

In fact, running 500+ balls is going to require a lot more than just ball pocketing ability- you just have to keep that CB under control to avoid just one mis-step in running that many balls. So there are many pool playing skills at work here, no matter what the pocket size.

Hats Off to the guys who make this event happen, hats off to the great players we can watch here at no cost to us but our own time, A very big THANK YOU and Best of Luck to all the participants going forward!

 

[sjm]

Wonderful run by Jayson. It is quite possible that, by the end of the week, Jayson will have played nearly as much straight pool at The Legends event than in the rest of his life combined, making his accomplishment all the more impressive.

The conditions are a little bit easy, but the fact that Jayson has run more than any other participant in this event to this point speaks volumes, and Jayson's raw talent is just mind-blowing. The three straightest shooters in the world, by my reckoning, are Fedor Gorst, Josh Filler and Jayson Shaw, and I'd love to see what Fedor and Josh can run if afforded the opportunity.

I've always felt and have often read the same view on this forum that John's record is unapproachable simply because nobody has the incentive to dedicate their time to such an effort. The Legends event has created that incentive and has proven, in my eyes, that the record is approachable, while simultaneously underscoring just how tough it is to top John Schmidt's world record run.

Congrats to Bobby and Lou on staging an exceptional event.

 

[lfigueroa]

Jayson is shooting now.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Shuddy]

You've contrived several false premises there bro.

Preface: I think JS’s 626 is a phenomenal achievement. My motivation for and enjoyment watching the Legend’s streams has nothing to do with JS’s accomplishment. I just love straight pool. However, I’m referencing the Legends table and the other infamous table because people who accept JS’s run are beginning to suggest not accepting runs made on the Legends table.

Actually, I think the problem is not strawmen I’ve set up for you, but rather not explaining some of my own thoughts about pocket pool in general.
Pool doesn’t have standards; not standard pocket sizes, not defined angles, not defined shelf depth, not defined shelf curve. There are even different rubber specifications. I know there are various organizations that have ranges of specifications they require, but even those vary up to half an inch regarding pocket size. Compare this to snooker. There are very specific templates used by the WST for their tables. Nothing is ambiguous.

I’ll come back to this.

One, I have watched hundreds of hours, if not thousands, of pool events on 9 foot tables. And, I've owned 9 foot tables for roughly 40 years. I know what the pockets look like on camera and in person. Most of us avid players and fans do.

Fine. I acknowledged your anecdotal observations. As Legends has provided us with photos of their pockets with measurements overlayed, I personally would like to see the same for JS’s table. I can’t even see balls being potted on the table as it was when he made his 626. Before that happens, unless I’ve played on “both” tables, I can’t make any comparison between the two.

The only reason I want to see JS’s pockets is because people are starting to comment on the Legends table, and in your case, question the validity of any high runs made on the table.

Two, they've published an overhead picture of the pockets that show that they're cut different from standard pockets.

See above re. comparing tables and my opinion of “standards” in pocket billiards.

Three, it's obvious from watching the shots that some of these would not go on a standard 9 foot table with 5" pockets.

Four, the cloth is no longer brand new. It's been played on for weeks. Even in a few days of tournament play, commentators will note that the table conditions have changed and gotten tighter after the cloth has gotten some play.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure it was replaced just before Jayson started his session. That is, it’s not the same cloth Earl played on.

Five, the Rebco pockets would be irrelevant except for the fact that as soon as one of these great players puts up a number above 526 or 626, they'll be claiming that is the new record. Given all the controversy that people (some involved in this event) have raised about JS's run, that will immediately make the pockets an issue of dispute.

Regardless of the questions people have about JS’s table, or the questions they have about the Legends table, it won’t affect the validity of either JS’s world record high run, or any runs made during this event. The tables both have roughly 5” pockets. Is there a standard for other specifications as defined by the BCA for setting 14.1 high run records?

Six, I didn't say it "calls into question the validity of anything achieved in this event." I said it "calls into question the validity of runs on this table." Many great things are being achieved in this event and by this group of people. I'm focused here on any records that come out of it.

Semantics. I was obviously talking about high runs as you were.

Seven, I'm thrilled these guys are running this event, and very excited about the players who have participated, and am very much looking forward to more great champions participating. And, I believe there is a very good chance that Ruslan, or Jayson, or one of a number of current players could put up a Willie or JS number. I'd like to see that as free from controversy as possible because I respect these players and this event, and most of all, want to see any new record create interest in straight pool, not disgust that we can't even agree on a standard table or show the proper respect due for a run like JS's, or if his record is broken, Jayson's or Ruslan's, or whomever it may be.

Absolutely; I didn’t question your overall good will towards this event. In terms of controversy, 99.99% of pool players have zero first hand knowledge of JS’s high run or the conditions under which it was accomplished. I personally think that if we’re willing to accept and acknowledge his accomplishment in good faith, which I am, regardless of how much I really want to see his 626, then we should applaud the transparency Legends have provided and extend equal good will, particularly considering the lack of standards surrounding the acknowledgement of records in straight pool.

So, finally, my position is very simple and free of knots. It seems clear, in my humble opinion, that the pockets are not standard and are significantly more generous than pockets in common use on 9 foot tables with 5 inch pockets. I'd like to see it fixed now, not because I'm complaining about these great players or these fine people who are investing so much of their effort in a great event, but because I want to to preserve the integrity of the event and the record I believe may very well come out of it. And, ultimately, I want that accomplishment to be acclaimed and create interest in straight pool, not be another great controversy that doesn't further the game.

And finally, this is where I see all the knots. There are no standards for pool. John made his run on some random table somewhere (obviously not random, and we know where). Did that table meet some kind of standard? When standards are absent, how could it? You are respectfully and with good intentions suggesting the Legends make some adjustments to their table. However, this is based on nothing other than your anecdotal observations and your opinion that tables should meet some kind of defined standard (I think they should too, but for 14.1 high runs, there is no standard). Personally, I’d like to see photos with measurements from when JS made his run, but even then, regardless of what those photos informed me of, they would make no difference to the validity of high runs achieved during the Legends event.

No problem if you disagree. People who love the game can have different opinions. But, with all due acknowledgement of and respect for the people making this great effort and hosting or participating, that's my opinion.

Again, absolutely. It’s an amazing event they are running, and I’ve relished every opportunity they’ve provided to watch world class sports people playing the game I love.

High five

 

[gerryf]

An interesting sequence of runs for Day 4.

Jayson had his two 300+ runs which was great!

In the larger picture, he's still having 75% of his runs less than 100, and I noticed it was that way for just Day 4, and also the combined Day1-Day4.

So the 'gravy' is in the 25% of the runs over 100.

But the variability in one day is interesting.
On Day 4 he had a sequence of 15 runs, with six runs higher than 100. But Day 4 also saw a sequence of 15 runs with no runs over 100.

 

[arnaldo]

. . . our event is not about John though some out there insist on trying to make it so.

Lou Figueroa

Einstein imagined and proved his ideas about the nature of space and time for reasons that had nothing to do with Isaac Newton's "Principia" views. The comparisons and superiority of his own original, widely divergent insights, motivations and equations came post facto from others and were irrelevant to Einstein. As they should be.

Arnaldo

 

[middleofnowhere]

A whole inch? How is that a fact? You just made that up!

The man putting on the event responded directly to my comment and did not disagree. Balls are hitting the rails inches from the pockets and going in like there is a vacuum sucking them in. Shots down the rails are almost impossible to miss.

My 1 inch comment was just arbitrary it could be more. I'm wondering what they're cleaning the balls with, they seem to be almost completely frictionless.

After every break shot there's hardly two balls touching and breakouts require nothing more than a light touch and the balls are all separated. This all adds up to the table playing so easy most players wouldn't want to play on it. It would be embasissing.

 

[lfigueroa]

The man putting on the event responded directly to my comment and did not disagree. Balls are hitting the rails inches from the pockets and going in like there is a vacuum sucking them in. Shots down the rails are almost impossible to miss.

My 1 inch comment was just arbitrary it could be more. I'm wondering what they're cleaning the balls with, they seem to be almost completely frictionless.

After every break shot there's hardly two balls touching and breakouts require nothing more than a light touch and the balls are all separated. This all adds up to the table playing so easy most players wouldn't want to play on it. It would be embasissing.

oh, it's so terrible... then please stop watching.

Lou Figueroa