John had 3 hundred ball runs in a 14.1 tournament where the pkts were very tight. No one else ran a 100 in the tournament once...
john schimdt runs 266
- Thread starter vicki h
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John had 3 hundred ball runs in a 14.1 tournament where the pkts were very tight. No one else ran a 100 in the tournament once...
So races to 5 in 9 ball is a true test of skill I guess....
I doubt Mosconi had much time on 8' tables either. Mostly 9' and 10'. And I don't believe there is any prohibition against today's pros having a go on an 8'.
Besides, didn't Mosconi just walk in the door of Springfield's East High Billiard Club that night, take a couple of warm up racks, and do it on his first offensive turn at the table? I mean, it's not like all these pros should need to lock themselves up in a room for weeks and weeks. Just walk in and do it, like Willie did.
Lou Figueroa
Again, great job on the run John. That aint' easy to do.
I could be mistaken but I believe it was an exhibition match, rather than just a trick shot show, which he also did sometimes. Either way, he isnt going to stand before a paying crowd and play tiddly winks. He's gonna show them that he really is the man. His reputation, entertainment value, his title, his paycheck, was constantly on the line at this point, he was under much pressure just like any other occupation.
Additionally, holding high run records did, and has always, equated to respect, and even intimidation when it comes to pool. High runs have always been recorded, publicized and coveted. Always.
To think that Mosconi, or any serious shooters today, would not LOVE to be the holder of that record is banana nut bread crazy loco.
Have a read:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=373240
I could be mistaken but I believe it was an exhibition match, rather than just a trick shot show, which he also did sometimes. Either way, he isnt going to stand before a paying crowd and play tiddly winks. He's gonna show them that he really is the man. His reputation, entertainment value, his title, his paycheck, was constantly on the line at this point, he was under much pressure just like any other occupation.
Additionally, holding high run records did, and has always, equated to respect, and even intimidation when it comes to pool. High runs have always been recorded, publicized and coveted. Always.
To think that Mosconi, or any serious shooters today, would not LOVE to be the holder of that record is banana nut bread crazy loco.
Have a read:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=373240
Forget the table for a second, and answer me this. Why is it you think there are "multiple" pros who are so much better than mosconi at straight pool? What has changed in the world that there are MULTIPLE players better than the best in the world during his time? Don't give me any bullshit about equipment because that doesn't make a great player. People will get used to what they play on period. Then consider these facts:
Pool was bigger, more popular, and more mainstream during his time.
Straight pool was the game of the time(more competition)
He was the BEST by a long shot... In a much bigger more competitive field.
With all that said how are you going to say that there are MULTIPLE players better than mosconi in a time where straight pool and pool in general isn't even that popular?
This isn't some super athletic sport where medicine, training equipment, nutrition, and supplements(which have all advanced dramatically since the 50's) breed better athletes..
Your argument makes no sense.
that guy didn't say that in his post- he was just stating that the MC is 9 ball, not 14.1
Ive gotta agree with this. 9 &10 ball are easier to play after practicing 14.1. At least to me. My precision shape jumps up by leaps and bounds after practicing 14.1. In 9 and 10 ball, you can get away with playing "area" shape. If you are similarly lax in playing shape in 14.1, you certainly won't get very far.
I wasn't doubting that Schmidt could have a long run on a tight GC. I was just asking why Diamond's are thought to be the most difficult tables to play on when a tight GC is just as tough if not tougher
Because of the mitre angles of the pockets and the deep shelf of the diamond. I guess tough is tough, but that deep shelf makes things even tougher, other conditions remaining similar.
You know what it comes down to it Lou...Pool players are the KING of excuses, and now they are even giving them out to others. Poor pool players can't "afford' to break the record. LOL
You act like Mosconi walked in there and said "alright everyone, listen up, I am about to proceed to run 526 balls" and then went and did it. The fact is that this was the best run out of his 74 years of pool playing, not some one time attempt at something.
It was a pool room exhibition match against some local which comes with far, far less pressure than what anyone would be under while trying to break a 50 year old record, even if they were alone and just videoing it for proof. Not to mention Mosconi's exhibition was actually over for most of his run. When the match ended the locals asked Mosconi if he would continue his run for them and he obliged. It wasn't really any different than people watching you practice, particularly at that point.
Nobody would say it isn't a nice title. It is also in a game that has been out of favor and all but extinct for 40 years and the title comes with little real benefit or reward. It isn't worth the effort to have, as it would take some real effort. Whole lot of work and effort for very little reward is not an appealing formula for anybody.
But like I said before, you of all people could organize a prize fund of $30,000. Put one up and see how fast you find out you were wrong. There is no reason not to, you see lottery type odds for your chance to lose.
And then probably only if his opponent breaks dry. :grin-square:
I said multiple pros are capable of breaking his record, and went on to say that who was actually better would still be debatable (to some at least) even after they break his record.
A larger percentage of the US may have played pool back then, but the population of the US has grown substantially to offset it. You have a smaller percentage of a larger population now. Plus pool has grown world wide now where it was only a US thing way back then so you have the whole world of players to consider, not just the US.
The fact that straight pool isn't played much now is the biggest hurdle today's players face. But today's players are more highly skilled, and some of them have some reasonable experience with straight pool. And many of those that don't could learn pretty quick. You don't think if Efren was motivated he couldn't spend a few weeks playing straight pool all day long and get it figured out pretty good? Of course he could. But the top players that already have some straight pool skill and knowledge are the ones best positioned to be able to break the record in short order.
Being the best in one generation is absolutely positively meaningless when it comes to how well you would do in another era. Overall the players are better today than they were then. Mosconi wouldn't run over today's players like he was doing then. The talent level has improved too much.
Why the players are better today is a whole other lengthy discussion but it is that way in all sports. People get better over time in all sports. This is indisputable fact. And it has relatively little to do with equipment, training, or nutrition, especially with pool. Again, whole other discussion for another thread though. What is important is that pool shouldn't be and isn't the lone exception out of the hundreds or even thousands of sports and events out there. Humans have gotten much better at it too, just like with everything else.
And then you have this. Multiple players have already bested the difficulty of Mosconi's record, some of them more than once. Any player that has run around 400 balls on a 9 ft has already beaten the difficulty of the record. There is no reason they couldn't do 526 on an 8 ft with buckets when they have already done more difficult feats on tougher equipment.
1) You say that pool players are better now. I know why you FEEL that way, it is a human trait to associate yourself, your generation, your people, your WHATEVER with the best.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority). Now, in the case of ATHLETIC sports there is actual scientific reason why athletes are better now. In the case of pool however, there is absolutely NO advantage players have now other than the wealth of knowledge out there. Knowledge will only get you so far. It wont set you a 50 year record.
2) According to you there is a very large number of pool players worldwide. Well, this attests to the difficulty of beating this record, by the fact that no one has. Surely any self-proclaimed straight pool player is going to try their DAMNEDEST to beat Willie Mosconi's 50+ year record. Why would they not?
3) You say people have already beaten the "difficulty" of the record in other ways. This is 100% subjective and you know it. Arguably the hardest aspect of running 526 balls is luck. Any long run of straight pool involves getting some rolls.
4) Tight pockets are tougher to make balls in, I agree. However the rest of the "playability" of a nice diamond table makes everything else easier. The table does what it is SUPPOSED to do every shot. Regardless, the difficulty in straight pool lies with the game itself: patterns, position, and break outs, and most importantly, consistency and concentration.
5) I'd like to know, how did all of these supposed "more difficult" runs end? Did they end on a rattled ball? Or did the player get out of line, dog it, make the wrong decision. etc. If it was the prior how do we know it would have went on the 8 foot with buckets?
In Summary you are belittling a record that has stood for over 50 years because you like to believe you live in the "best" generation of pool players ever. This can't be proven and is irrelevant. Every player since the record was set has had and still has the opportunity to use the same exact "easy" table yet still the record hasn't been bested. One day someone will beat the record, but until then I'll just keep listening to the excuses, what ifs, and apples to oranges comparisons.
1. No, you FEEL like the players of today are not better. Science proves beyond any doubt that 50 years later players are better in pretty much every sport and everything else for that matter. Pool isn't any exception. You just don't want to believe it because you would rather hold onto the romantic notion of an unbeatable record or the common human feelings of how it "was so much better back in the day".
2. I don't believe that people are really that dumb to believe that someone is going to put in all the effort to break this record for next to no payoff or benefit. As long as there is no reason for top players to be playing on 8 ft buckets that record will be standing for the next 1000 years. Nobody plays on 8 ft tables and nobody has a reason to. Nobody puts in tons of work for little reward. You won't do it, I won't do it, Mosconi wouldn't and didn't do it, today's top pros won't do it, and nobody else in the rest of the world does it either. Breaking the record would take a ton of time, effort and expense, and the pleasure of having the next to meaningless title of record breaker (it would bring little actual value) wouldn't even come close to compensating for all that time, effort, and expense.
3. If you don't believe that 400 on a 9 ft is as tough or tougher than a 526 on an 8 ft with buckets there isn't much help for you. If you don't believe anyone that can run 400 on a 9 ft could run another 30% more balls (rounded off) on a table that is orders of magnitude easier to play the game on then there is no help for you.
4. If you don't think Diamond tables are tougher than most other tables out there then there is no help for you. By the way, those runs of 400ish I am referring to were not on tough Diamond tables I don't believe, as runs on tough Diamond tables are significantly less. To give you an example, and I'm going by memory here so I could be off a couple of balls, John Schmidt's high run on a 9 ft table is 403, and he has another run of 400. On a tough 9 ft Diamond table his high run was 294, and I think he feels the run of 294 on the tough Diamond table is a bigger accomplishment than his runs of over 400 were.
5. Most of the truly high runs that I have heard of ended by missing a moderately tough shot. Something they would have made on an 8 ft significantly more often.
I'm not belittling a record. Just because I believe several people playing today could break it doesn't mean that it isn't super impressive, because it is. I'll tell you like I tell everyone else. If you truly believe that the record has stood for 50 years because nobody during that time was capable of breaking it, then it is a near impossible record to break. The odds of winning the power ball lottery would be better than the odds of someone breaking the record within the next 6 months. So you would have no reason not to put up the 30k prize fund with a 6 month deadline then as your money is completely safe.
So put up the 30k and lets see. But like everybody else you are just lip service. You wouldn't put up anything sizable towards the prize fund because you know you are full of crap and would lose your money, and quickly. So keep on with the lip service, because that is all it is. You don't believe a word you are saying and neither does anyone else or else somebody would be putting up a nice fund with a deadline for this "impossible" feat.
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I had to stop here.....
Really, what "science" made pool players better today than 50 years ago. The equipment is a little better, but that only make is a little easier on the players today, it does not make them better, per se.
Now, in the other sports, expert conditioning, speed drills, new playing techniques, video analysis, dietary supplements, knowing the right foods to put on the right muscle, much more instructors and work out facilities available for basketball, baseball, football, hockey players, etc. year round.
What has changed in pool in the last 50 years for players. The most significant might be LD shafts. yeah, the balls and cloth are better, again, that helps the player, but the player had to do nothing to get better through the new technology.
So, what exactly are these pool players doing so different today than 50 years ago that makes them superior players?
I like the players from past and present. But thinking one is better than the other is silly.
Again, if anyone could break the record, they would break the record, plain and simple. Who would not want the most notable pool record on the planet, held by the most notable professional pool player, who had the most notable world championships, winning 19.
Just remember, to be the BEST, you gotta beat the BEST. And right now, the BEST is 526. And if anyone wants to prove me wrong, come and get some, there are 8 foot tables all over the place.
Or they can take the easy way out and just win 19 world championships, and I will personally crown them the best and put $30K in their hands. And I'll do the $30K for a 526 run as well* Come and take my cheese
*conditions apply
PS: Congrats to John on his run. A great player and one of my favorites as well.
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No, that is not true. First off, Charlie Ursitti watched Mosconi run over 600 on a 9' table. Willie put his cue down, though he hadn't missed and the balls were wide open. He wanted to go to dinner. He said, "See. It's no big deal to run 600."
Second, Mosconi traveled the country for years and according to just about everyone who ever saw him, ran 100 each and every time, and then stopped. Just think if each time he had kept going. Who knows what "the run" would have ended up being?
Lou Figueroa
the only thing official about the Mosoni 526 is he ran alot of balls in front of a group of people and then one of them suggested they make it official with an affidavit signed by multiple people who watched the run. There was no original intent to run a big number. It is not know if Mosconi fouled a ball with hand or cue while executing the run he was know to do such things in his exhibitions. There is not even an agreement on if the run came to an end or if he missed or just quit playing ie got tired lets get something to eat. Mosconi himself gave different accounts as to the run ending with a miss and later in life he claimed to have stopped shooting.Also the pockets were like 5.5" with no shelf. The table was in George Roods poolroom years later after the run it was said to have large easy pockets.
I think Cranfield and Eufemia had higher practice runs they are not recognized as they were not watched or made official by an affidavit.
So if diamond made John a 4x8 hi run table. 5.5" pockets, straight cut openeings with no siginificant shelf. Arimith supply a set of tourney pro balls and a LD Fury shaft he would be in business ready to run alot of balls and in my mind John would run 526+ in less than 6 months if he had a reason to do it. Myself I would by the stream I think the stream would sell if he put in 4 hour sessions daily people could watch it live and he would run the balls 100+ every day and one day he would get in gear and run that big number. It would not be impossible for him to do it.
Now I spoke to John about besting the 526 in the past he said it could be done and would not take that long if there was a prize fund. His suggestion was to have multiple tables and have the players attack it as a team and support each other. In my opinion with 4 top players playing in an arena daily on 4 similar big pocket 8 ft tables and a prize structure such that when it is beaten they all win somehow the time frame to run 526+ is probably under a month. I personnaly think John would post 200+ runs nearly every day on such a table and his rate of play would allow him to run the big number in under 3 hours.
526+ is doable but without the funding it will have to wait till someone does it on tough 9' equipment and has the video camera going and that will happen one of these days. John has ran the 400 number a couple of times. There are big numbers happening in Europe and Danny H has also ran a high number before. Who know what will happen if the 14.1 hi run thing takes off in Southeast Asia.
The 526 number has stood a long time. I think it has been surpassed in the US by more than 1 player (Mosconi in practice per Lou, Eufemia, Cranfield) It will be surpassed on video sooner than later just my opinion. Would not last very long if there was a siginficant prize fund, remember Strickland and the million dollar challenge to run 11 racks orf nineball. he did it because there was a reward for doing so and the same would happen if there was a reward to run 526+. Put up money the number will come, however no funding it will only be a matter of time as 14.1 is being played, practiced and videoed.
I think Cranfield and Eufemia had higher practice runs they are not recognized as they were not watched or made official by an affidavit.
So if diamond made John a 4x8 hi run table. 5.5" pockets, straight cut openeings with no siginificant shelf. Arimith supply a set of tourney pro balls and a LD Fury shaft he would be in business ready to run alot of balls and in my mind John would run 526+ in less than 6 months if he had a reason to do it. Myself I would by the stream I think the stream would sell if he put in 4 hour sessions daily people could watch it live and he would run the balls 100+ every day and one day he would get in gear and run that big number. It would not be impossible for him to do it.
Now I spoke to John about besting the 526 in the past he said it could be done and would not take that long if there was a prize fund. His suggestion was to have multiple tables and have the players attack it as a team and support each other. In my opinion with 4 top players playing in an arena daily on 4 similar big pocket 8 ft tables and a prize structure such that when it is beaten they all win somehow the time frame to run 526+ is probably under a month. I personnaly think John would post 200+ runs nearly every day on such a table and his rate of play would allow him to run the big number in under 3 hours.
526+ is doable but without the funding it will have to wait till someone does it on tough 9' equipment and has the video camera going and that will happen one of these days. John has ran the 400 number a couple of times. There are big numbers happening in Europe and Danny H has also ran a high number before. Who know what will happen if the 14.1 hi run thing takes off in Southeast Asia.
The 526 number has stood a long time. I think it has been surpassed in the US by more than 1 player (Mosconi in practice per Lou, Eufemia, Cranfield) It will be surpassed on video sooner than later just my opinion. Would not last very long if there was a siginficant prize fund, remember Strickland and the million dollar challenge to run 11 racks orf nineball. he did it because there was a reward for doing so and the same would happen if there was a reward to run 526+. Put up money the number will come, however no funding it will only be a matter of time as 14.1 is being played, practiced and videoed.
Maybe you missed the $30K I just put up??