Efren or Allison?

I think it is silly to be using these handicaps to describe anyone but local players. I know alot of APA 7's that play really good 8 ball on the bar box. The 9's may play really good 9 ball on the small table also. That all goes to crap when you put them (not all of course) on the big table and they have to spin their ball and stroke to get to one side or the other. Are these women all 7's, probably so. So are probably 3/4 of the other players. I know alot of great 9 ball players who try to play 8 ball the same way they would play 9 ball. They are 6's until they quit trying to run out all their balls and give table control over with only one or two of their balls left on the table. With just knowing and executing the right game strategy, those beforementioned would be easy 7's.

Using an APA number to talk about upper crust players just isnt accurate and is misleading. I know MANY 7's who dont play nine ball regularly that wouldnt win against our pool room B players. It makes no sense to me to use an 8 ball amateur handicap to talk about above A players.
 
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girlwon1 said:
I think it is silly to be using these handicaps to describe anyone but local players. I know alot of APA 7's that play really good 8 ball on the bar box. The 9's may play really good 9 ball on the small table also. That all goes to crap when you put them (not all of course) on the big table and they have to spin their ball and stroke to get to one side or the other. Are these women all 7's, probably so. I know alot of great 9 ball players who try to play 8 ball the same way they would play 9 ball. They are 6's until they quit trying to run out all their balls and give table control over with only one or two of their balls left on the table. With just knowing and executing the right game strategy, those beforementioned would be easy 7's.

Using an APA number to talk about upper crust players just isnt accurate and is misleading. I know MANY 7's who dont play nine ball regularly that wouldnt win against our pool room B players. It makes no sense to me to use an 8 ball amateur handicap to talk about above A players.
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I agree (ah looky there) and I was not the one who tried to make this comparison, it was your pal Pete. I only tried to make the same point that you just did, that a 7 being the highest ranking in APA could not be a measure for pros, since if that were the case, yes the top 16 would be 7's among many other WPBA players and so would Efren, Johnny....a 7 in APA can be a 7 or an 8 or 9...it is not an accurate assesment of skill beyond the league level.
 
cuechick said:
A shortstop? Isn't that between a B and an A? Allison is much stronger than that, you guys just really don't know do you? As I said, I watched Allison shoot a 7 pack, what difference would it make who was sitting in the chair? How many shortstops can do that... have you ever really watched her play. I mean really?
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A shortstop is about 120-150 speed USPPA rating. Allison at the top of her game is like a 130-140.
 
whitewolf said:
I bought a tape and watched Johnny Archer clean Efren's clock. Why? BECAUSE EFREN BREAKS LIKE A GIRL. Ask Grady Matthews, he was narrarting the show. He said that Efren's Achilles Hill was his break.
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You're clueless, you can't read, and apparently you don't know how to listen to commentary. And, you've never seen him break. Stick to your pond. Why don't you buy the tape where Efren cleaned Archer's clock?

And from reading all of the posters below, I see where Efren never ran over 10 racks in a row. WHY? BECAUSE HE HAS A GIRLY-MAN BREAK.
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Apparently, 9 racks wasn't good enough for you. What a friggin' clueless moron.
 
Efren DOES NOT break "like a girl", if you have seen him play enough you would know he breaks them very hard and can control the cueball. Just watch Efren vs Earl TCOM Hong Kong $100,000 match if you want to see some of the best breaking in the world.
 
A lot of people believe the break shot is the most important part of nine ball at the pro level and Efren wins at nine ball all the time so how can his break be all that bad?

Just because he doesn't break them as hard as Archer or Busta doesn't meant his break is less effective anyway. I have Efren on all kinds of tapes and when he starts medium-hard breaking and making the one in the side or the corner ball, whoever he is playing is completely f***ed. His break looked awesome at DCC- what did he lose, one game out of fifteen in the last two sets?

I think Earl even yelled "Break them like a man..." at Efren one time when Reyes was breaking softly. Efren ignored him and kept running out, breaking, running out,...

Besides, these guys are crafty, anyway. You might say Corey Deuel hits them like a girl on his break but they're changing the rules to stop him from doing it because he (like Efren) is kicking ass without trying to break like Busta, Bryant, Earl,etc...
 
"Good point and I actually agree with it. I know I just exaggerated a little when I described Efren's break. It was fun though and now I know who I can hustle when Allison plays Efren getting the best breaker in the world to break for her. I may not have $30,000, but I will still put some money down.."

Oh now it was just a little exaggeration. Just a little back pedaling? It wasnt "fun though". You sounded like a complete idiot. Its no wonder you dont have the 30K. You are a little lost about reality and in should know the Denial is not a river in Egypt. No one is criticizing Allison and her talent and ability. If anyone is they cant be taken seriously. She just is not in the same caliber as Efren Reyes.
 
I'm with cuechick on this one. I don't think Efren would even agree to giving Allison 6 & out. He's too knowledgeable. She is just too dangerous -- too consistent. I'm not saying that he's not a better player overall, but that kind of weight is ridiculous. Efren is great, probably the greatest, but he is no pool god. No man is.
I'm not talking about "women" vs. "men". That's not what this thread was about. It was about Allison vs. Efren. Allison Fisher is not just any female player. She seems to be in a class of her own. Her statistics show that. I have seen few players, male or female, with that kind of consistency. Give her half a chance and she will clear the table most of the time just like any great player will. And it would take someone like Efren to outmatch her in safety play, and even then, I think that would be close too. In a heads-up match, sure I'd put my money on Reyes. I wouldn't expect it to be a blowout though. I think Allison is being grossly underestimated here.
 
For those of you who don't think Efren can give Allison that kind of weight, when Jennifer Chen was number 4 or 5 in the world a couple of years ago, and Santos Sambajon was a SHORTSTOP, he gave her the 6-out (either that or the 5,7, last 3 and breaks, I don't remember which one) and the BREAKS for a couple thousand per set, race to 11. He DRILLED HER both sets, something like 11-5, 11-6. Jennifer didn't play bad, she just didn't have many chances, and she couldn't kick, safe, or break well enough to even pose a threat.

Cuechick you say that for Efren to give Allison the 6-out he could never miss. When Efren plays any other male professional player, if he misses, he loses the game almost always. It would be the same thing giving Allison the 6-out. When you see Allison running 2 and 3 packs on TV, do you have any clue how MASSIVE the pockets are that she plays on? The new cloth makes the pockets play even BIGGER. I've seen Efren run RACKS of 15-ball rotation on 4" pockets with old cloth! Cuechick you are living in a pool fantasy world. Allison is like a 130-140 speed TOPS while Efren has been rated around 190. Big difference. Allison has NOWHERE NEAR the kicking and safing ability that Efren has, not even in the same ballpark! She can run out if she stays in line. She has NOWHERE NEAR the stroke capability Efren has. I've seen her play safe on 6 foot draw shots on super fast cloth, Efren draws those shots in his sleep.
 
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kdd9 said:
Give her half a chance and she will clear the table most of the time just like any great player will. And it would take someone like Efren to outmatch her in safety play, and even then, I think that would be close too. In a heads-up match, sure I'd put my money on Reyes.
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I think this is where you and Cuechick are grossly underestimating Efren. Allison's safety game is great vs. her competition. But Efren's safety game and more importantly, his kicking (both aggressive and defensive) is better than anyone in the world. The only people that were close on a consistent basis are Jose, and Sigel, IMNSHO.

So, if you break it down:

Break - anyone who thinks Efren isn't a better breaker is a lunatic
Shotmaking - tossup
Control - Allison
Creativity - Efren
Power Shots - Efren
Super Delicate Shots - Efren
Safety - Efren
Kicks -Efren
Gambling - Efren (which is a reason this is a stupid discussion... Allison has no reason to shoot this match)

There's probably more to list, but I think people who see Allison run racks, and get safe on her peers might not see the whole picture. My opinions are just that, but the following fact, not opinion:

There have been a couple of opportunities to see Allison against one of the men. But, both times that I know of, she didn't win the women's tournament to get a shot at it. One was on TV where the finals ended up being CJ Wiley vs. Vivian (CJ destroyed her), and one was at the Brunswick WPBA in NYC at AMsterdam where again, Vivian beat Allison in the tourney and ended up getting shelled by Ginky afterwards.

And this was at a time where Allison was winning everything.

Fred
 
LastTwo said:
For those of you who don't think Efren can give Allison that kind of weight, when Jennifer Chen was number 4 or 5 in the world a couple of years ago, and Santos Sambajon was a SHORTSTOP, he gave her the 6-out (either that or the 5,7, last 3 and breaks, I don't remember which one) and the BREAKS for a couple thousand per set, race to 11. He DRILLED HER both sets, something like 11-5, 11-6. Jennifer didn't play bad, she just didn't have many chances, and she couldn't kick, safe, or break well enough to even pose a threat.
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Every one keeps bringing up this Jennifer Chen match and I do not understand how you can compare her to Allison, to my knowledge Jennifer has NEVER won a single WPBA event. Allison has won over 70...she is not in the same league as Allison the only ones who are even close are Karen, Ga, Jeanette and maybe Monica, maybe.

I have a question to anyone here, can Efren give Mika the 6 and Out? Just curious....
 
cuechick said:
Every one keeps bringing up this Jennifer Chen match and I do not understand how you can compare her to Allison, to my knowledge Jennifer has NEVER won a single WPBA event. Allison has won over 70...she is not in the same league as Allison the only ones who are even close are Karen, Ga, Jeanette and maybe Monica, maybe.

I have a question to anyone here, can Efren give Mika the 6 and Out? Just curious....
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So you are going to bring up that Karen Corr beat Mika Immonen once or twice, and say that she plays as good as Mika? You are off your rocker.

When Santos was a shortstop he was not even in Efren's ballpark. I'll tell you what kind of spot Efren could NOT give Allison, and that would be 3 or 4 games on the wire to 9. At the pro level, spotting balls really doesn't mean much unless you spot the breaks to go along with it. Games on the wire are HUGE compared to spotting balls.
 
LastTwo said:
So you are going to bring up that Karen Corr beat Mika Immonen once or twice, and say that she plays as good as Mika? You are off your rocker.

When Santos was a shortstop he was not even in Efren's ballpark. I'll tell you what kind of spot Efren could NOT give Allison, and that would be 3 or 4 games on the wire to 9. At the pro level, spotting balls really doesn't mean much unless you spot the breaks to go along with it. Games on the wire are HUGE compared to spotting balls.
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If you want to compare AF to Chen why does it not work both ways? Yes, Karen has beaten Mika even, in tournaments. This is fact. Allison has beaten Karen many times, fact. So if anyone here believes Efren could not give Mika the 6- out why would you believe he could beat Allison or Karen that spot? I am just asking.

I have never said she would beat him even but I am not 100% sure she couldn't either ...and the truth is, this match up in any form, will most likely never happen so no one will ever know for sure.

However, in a few years or maybe much sooner I have no doubt that Kelly Fisher may be in that league as well and I bet she would take on any of the top men with that spot.

For the record there was just a thread on the CCB about the size of the pockets on the WPBA tour, which according to Fran Crimi are not oversized at all. In fact they are slightly tighter than standard tabels. This is not me saying this just what I read over there. To me it is a weak argument to bring up pocket size when your talking about a snooker champion, ahhh yeah, that matters to her?
 
Think about Abe Lincoln

cuechick said:
If you want to compare AF to Chen why does it not work both ways? Yes, Karen has beaten Mika even, in tournaments. This is fact. Allison has beaten Karen many times, fact. So if anyone here believes Efren could not give Mika the 6- out why would you believe he could beat Allison or Karen that spot? I am just asking.

I have never said she would beat him even but I am not 100% sure she couldn't either ...and the truth is, this match up in any form, will most likely never happen so no one will ever know for sure.

However, in a few years or maybe much sooner I have no doubt that Kelly Fisher may be in that league as well and I bet she would take on any of the top men with that spot.

For the record there was just a thread on the CCB about the size of the pockets on the WPBA tour, which according to Fran Crimi are not oversized at all. In fact they are slightly tighter than standard tabels. This is not me saying this just what I read over there. To me it is a weak argument to bring up pocket size when your talking about a snooker champion, ahhh yeah, that matters to her?
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Cuechick -

I think it was Abe who said "It is better they think of me as an idiot silently than to speak and remove all doubt of it"

You really, really need to come to the DCC and see the difference in levels. I enjoy watching Janette Lee play. At the DCC, she wasnt even beating shortstops, and had a problem playing one pocket with a local yocal.

If the men are a 10 on a scale of 1-10. Most women are about 5 with AF at a 6.

Cuechick you are wayyy off.

Ken
 
anyone ever been in a pool hall, woofed at some people, got the game you thought you had the nuts in..........and before you played several people came over to you and whispered "don't play this guy". then you did it anyway and you got drilled????

take the hint cuechick, you're talking yourself into a bad game.

VAP
 
Ken_4fun said:
You really, really need to come to the DCC and see the difference in levels. I enjoy watching Janette Lee play. At the DCC, she wasnt even beating shortstops, and had a problem playing one pocket with a local yocal.


Ken
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Ken,
You may be somewhat misinformed about Jeanette's performance at DCC in '04. Other than a weekend sparring with Efren the week before, and some tips from Danny D. that was Jeanette's first ever one pocket. I believe she finished in the money; fairly respectable for playing only a week and a half.

I couldn't access the final DCC standings; but I know she finished high in the banks (again, her first ever time playing banks) - perhaps top 8 or 16. Both she and Sarah performed admirably in the 9-ball (both in the money, Sarah the top woman). Jeanette also finished extremely well in the all-around competition (the top woman, and ahead of MANY notable pro's). I hope someone can post a link to the standings, but I'm sure I'm not far off

Anyone who saw Jeanette's match against Mika Immonen will confirm that it was EPIC. As posted here many times; Jeanette shot 1.000 and LOST (9-ball is a stupid game). Yes, I think that the women DEFINITELY are not as good as the men - but the majority of the difference is in the break. Bring on any shortstop you think is good enough to beat her/Allison/Karen if we give them George B. or Rodney Morris as designated breakers. Your shortstops will be sad and out of money. JMO

P.S. - Sort of a moot point now, since Jeanette is recovering from major, major surgery - doubtful she'll make it to DCC next year. I wonder if she'll ever play again.

P.P.S. - Any shortstop that wants to play her straight pool even up has a definite problem.
 
cuechick said:
Every one keeps bringing up this Jennifer Chen match and I do not understand how you can compare her to Allison, to my knowledge Jennifer has NEVER won a single WPBA event. Allison has won over 70...
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Wow, over 70, that sounds way too high! My guess is that she has yet to win her 50th WPBA title.
 
sjm said:
Wow, over 70, that sounds way too high! My guess is that she has yet to win her 50th WPBA title.
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i believe allison started on tour in 1995(could be wrong). Since 1995......there hasn't been many more than 70, if there has even been 70 events.

seems that math isn't cuechicks strong point either.

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
i believe allison started on tour in 1995(could be wrong). Since 1995......there hasn't been many more than 70, if there has even been 70 events.

seems that math isn't cuechicks strong point either.

VAP
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After all, she is an APA 7 ;)

My guess is she's around an C or C+ player.


Brian
 
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