English?

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ShootingArts said:
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu
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Seriously, why? Why must you always try to incite a riot with John? If you don't have anything nice to say, click out of his threads. It's that simple.
 
BRKNRUN said:
BTW....I don't think BCA instructors have a set foundation of teaching principles....at least not in "print" anywhere...It does not appear to be too difficult to get "certified".....www.bca-pool.com

An another note....I have heard on more than one occaision and "English" person ask why Americans refer to it as English???? The English refer to it as "side" or "screw"
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On the other side of the pond the English even have the endearing term "deep screw" to refer to very low backspin.

Didn't we have a thread about a year or so ago about an APA3 who got BCA certification as an instructor?

Now I am the last person who thinks that a person has to be able to DO what he is teaching in order to instruct and we certainly have had THAT discussion many times here. I think that it might be wise if the BCA made it a requirement that regular instructors not be allowed to do videos teaching pool. Perhaps it's better if these inexperienced teachers would learn their craft a little better and get an advanced certification before making themselves into YouTube stars. My thinking here is that they don't necessarily know HOW to teach yet and probably should not be trying to put out content to be consumed by beginners who might actually be harmed by the bite chunks of concepts when they really need personal instruction.

I am certain that this particular instructor was well meaning but I find his content to be inaccurate or if not entirely inaccurate then not inclusive or explanatory enough for the intended audience.

Thus the reason for the moratorium on allowing rookie instructors to make videos.

Or not. It's a new world and anyone with a camera can be a star without having to answer to anyone else for the content they put up. (within some parameters of course.)
 
9BallMarksman said:
Seriously, why? Why must you always try to incite a riot with John? If you don't have anything nice to say, click out of his threads. It's that simple.
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I think you go reread the post he made. It starts out with telling me I am wrong to question an instructor's instruction and ask AZ's opinion. Then of course he calls into question my ability to discern the situation and quote properly.

Then he gets around to discussing the topic.

Does Hu NEED to be here in the thread I started? Could it survive and the topic, which is "what is english and does it affect the cue ball's path?", be discussed without his participation and comment's about me personally?

No he doesn't need to be here. He chose to post and chose to be antagonistic. As he said before, "that's the way I roll" in reference to his intention to be rude and harassing at ever increasing levels.

But as you can see I came back with a reference to "top english" as well as further references gleaned from the Billiard Encyclopedia.

Sorry I don't sit around and make up stories about my "playing days". I can name names and get within a month or so for all my stories. I don't make up vague references to busting hustlers and wax forth as if I have been the greatest undercover player the world has known. Hu does that. I don't normally care, when I start reading one of those stories I just skip it because I feel it's likely untrue and is boring anyway. I skip ahead to the moral just like I do with fairy tales.

If he wants to discuss things without getting personal then by all means. But if he wants to stalk me through the forum with personal attacks just as he did here in this thread then I will call a spade a spade.

My mom didn't teach me to not say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say. She taught me too stand up for myself. I won't be bullied or insulted by Hu without rebuttal. If that offends you then I'd suggest you stop reading when you see his name and mine in the same thread because you might see me going off if he decides to be obnoxious.

You can clearly see that I don't hold a grudge as I have posted in at least one other thread along with him and not said a word TO HIM or ABOUT HIM.
 
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According to the dictionary

"The spin given to a propelled ball by striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist."

Side isn't top or bottom

The synonym for english: side spin
 
JB Cases said:
I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

Does the Billiard Encyclopedia give a source for this information? This would be the first time I have ever heard of Mignaud not being given credit for inventing the tip.
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JB Cases said:
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?
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I agree with him. I have always considered english to mean only side spin. Above the equator is follow, below is draw, dead center is center ball. It's only very recently that I have heard anyone say anything except dead center is english.

And, if you take his premise on what english is, then he is also correct on part two of his statement.
 
I use major English..

I love too see that cb move . I use it a lot i can get around the table very well . It's not how hard you hit the cb with, it it's how soft you do when using English . it's great to know but hard to master..
 
John,
Since you know me, I think you will agree that I have a little bit of knowledge about playing and teaching pool.
One of the keys to being a capable instructor is the ability to clearly articulate ideas to your students. I always use the terms right and left english and top(follow) or bottom (draw) in my classes for clarity. What you call it isn't as important as what you know about it.

As for the path the cue ball takes after separation, in theory, pure side spin isn't going to change things. In practical application, it is virtually impossible to have pure side spin because it is virtuallin impossible to have a perfectly level cue due to the elevation required to get the cue over the rails.

A cue ball with no spin at all upon contact with the object ball will separate at 90 degrees and continue in a straight path. If the cue ball has no forward or backward spin, but does have side spin, it will still separate at 90 degrees, and stay on track, since it would be spinning like a top, until some outside force (gravity and friction) cause the rotational energy to change the spin direction.

So while I underatand what the instructor was trying to say, I think there may have been something lost in the translation. Knowledge is a great thing, but the ability to communicate that knowledge with clarity is what allows some instructors to be better than others.

Steve

(How's my case coming along? :wink:
 
Good post Steve. :thumbup:

I'd always heard english references only side spin. The English used it, the Americans learned of it and subsequently coined the phrase.

When people say they put top or bottom english on the CB, which isn't uncommon, I just dismiss it as them not knowing.
 
KoolKat9Lives said:
Good post Steve. :thumbup:

I'd always heard english references only side spin. The English used it, the Americans learned of it and subsequently coined the phrase.

When people say they put top or bottom english on the CB, which isn't uncommon, I just dismiss it as them not knowing.
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Well said KoolKat9Lives. I look at it much the same as when someone is talking about "felt" on a pool table or using the dreaded fist bridge:eek:.
They just don't know.
 
12squared said:
Hi John,

I've always used "english" to describe left & right spin, anything on the vertical axis was not labelled as such. However, it's just the way I was taught to describe the cueball hit - but you are 100% right that once you leave center, all spin principals apply. So with that said, you are probably right.

Regarding tangent line or how the cueball leaves the object ball, of course high & low "spin/english" will have an effect on the direction of the cueball overall, but not at the point of contact, the alteration takes effect only after the cueball has enough time to bend. Note the 30 degree rule: if the cue ball is rolling forward when hitting the object ball, it will go apprx 30 degrees vs 90 degrees following the tangent line if it was hit with a stun stroke. So functionally, yes, "english/spin" does have an effect.

In addition, I believe that left & right spin can alter the path of the cueball also. Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change, but because that contact point would be different than a center ball hit to make the same shot. The side spin throws the object ball slightly so you can hit it fuller or thinner than with center ball. Plus the path of the cueball is slightly different because of swerve or whatever you want to call it.

I hope some of this makes sense...it's late for me.

Dave
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Very well explained... I agree in total: Cross-Side-Larry
 
I've heard it used both ways, but from my experience, the vast majority of the "in crowd" doesn't use the word english when referring to top or bottom (although there are exceptions). I don't know if I have ever heard a good player say "draw english" or "bottom english", but everybody says "left english" and "right english". Every time I hear someone use the term "draw english" its like nails on a chalkboard to me.

One more point is that, when someone says "you need to use a little english" they are never referring to draw or follow.

Under the definition of english being just side spin, the second point the instructor makes is also correct.
 
For me "english" has always been lefty righty. Toppy bottomy need not apply.

Just offering my understanding as I apply the word.
 
I agree with the point he made about english not changing the tangent line. At the point of contact english can't change the tangent line. After that initial contact the english will change the tangent line that is how we all get around the table. But the first moment the only thing I know that will change the tangent line is pure force and that is because the ball that is still will not rebound a ball that is coming in at a high velocity they will both travel in the same direction. The OB will knock the cue ball of it's coarse but at some point ot OB will over power the 6 oz in it's way. At this point the direction the cue ball would come off (tangent line) would be changed...the OB could be disintegrated by the cue ball, at some point it could just turn into dust.

As far as top and bottom not being english this is not fact it is opinion it is like saying the sky is blue. It is a word to describe something in the game of pool our own vocab. In no way would I agree with the assessment that top and bottom spin are not spin and the in my vocab the word spin means english so I do not agree with this at all...again this is an argument no one can win we made this up...
 
JamisonNeu said:
I agree with the point he made about english not changing the tangent line. At the point of contact english can't change the tangent line. After that initial contact the english will change the tangent line that is how we all get around the table. But the first moment the only thing I know that will change the tangent line is pure force and that is because the ball that is still will not rebound a ball that is coming in at a high velocity they will both travel in the same direction. The OB will knock the cue ball of it's coarse but at some point ot OB will over power the 6 oz in it's way. At this point the direction the cue ball would come off (tangent line) would be changed...the OB could be disintegrated by the cue ball, at some point it could just turn into dust.

As far as top and bottom not being english this is not fact it is opinion it is like saying the sky is blue. It is a word to describe something in the game of pool our own vocab. In no way would I agree with the assessment that top and bottom spin are not spin and the in my vocab the word spin means english so I do not agree with this at all...again this is an argument no one can win we made this up...
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Side spin only (on the ball's horizontal equator) will not effect the tangent line. Using side spin for steering the CB is only effective once the CB hits a rail and either opens or closes the natural angle it was on while approaching the rail.

In order to change the tangent line either follow or draw is needed.
 
I seem to recall reading in a book MANY years ago that in fact english is strictly "lefty righty", as Thunderball puts it. For the life of me, though, I can't remember where I read it- it was that long ago... >= 30 years I would guess.
 
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JB Cases said:
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?
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Gee, if only there were some place where the meaning(s) of words in
a language were kept for all to see.

Perhaps they could even be published in a book.

Gosh - I just noticed, it's 2010 - what if someone put all that information
online.

Dale(who is reasonably certain that in standard American English -
"english" refers to rotation around the vertical axis")
 
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