You are right. I misread your post as if you were chastising me. We all know THAT isn't allowed. ;-)
English?
- Thread starter JB Cases
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You are right. I misread your post as if you were chastising me. We all know THAT isn't allowed. ;-)
to verify something someone told me this time.
First, I posted because John's thread starter was genuinely funny. John is wrong about top and bottom being english. Then based on his wrong beliefs he slams somebody else for their posting of what seems to be several videos that are accepted terminology and beliefs. Secondly, somebody told me that John would never admit he was wrong no matter what. As you see in his many posts in this thread, he says he is wrong a few times about english but then reverses himself in the same post and says that even though he is wrong he is right and it should all be called english anyway. Confused enough with that double talk? John's posts are full of it. Now let's break down what I actually said and his reply to you when you asked me a question. To make things a little less confusing I use red to emphasis parts of John's message, blue for my text. Black inside the box is John's words, outside the box mine as is standard.
Now if you read my entire original post again without John's added spin claiming I said things I never said after reading post one in this thread it stands on it's own. John slammed somebody for making several correct statements. That makes someone look pretty ignorant of pool knowledge and it isn't the person that posted the video. I am bolding entire thoughts for those that can't tell the difference between what I actually said and John's translations of what I said.
(my original post)
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.
Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.
Hu
(end original post)
John repeatedly demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the pool term "english" in this thread and he also demonstrates his problems with quoting without embellishing putting his interpretation on what is said. When I quote I do the same as most reasonable people, cut and paste longer quotes or I may type two or three words carefully verifying them for accuracy.
John's latest thing is making the claims that I am a poser everywhere. Anybody that reads my posts from the beginning, middle or latest and thinks I am a poser is welcome to think so. None of those that were around during the same time period have ever expressed any doubts. Like me they have been there, done that, and don't need a t-shirt to prove it. John cheerfully puts his own spin on what I have said and then assaults that. I haven't stooped to doing that to John, he does a fine enough job of making a monkey out of himself without me twisting things.
Hu
First, I posted because John's thread starter was genuinely funny. John is wrong about top and bottom being english. Then based on his wrong beliefs he slams somebody else for their posting of what seems to be several videos that are accepted terminology and beliefs. Secondly, somebody told me that John would never admit he was wrong no matter what. As you see in his many posts in this thread, he says he is wrong a few times about english but then reverses himself in the same post and says that even though he is wrong he is right and it should all be called english anyway. Confused enough with that double talk? John's posts are full of it. Now let's break down what I actually said and his reply to you when you asked me a question. To make things a little less confusing I use red to emphasis parts of John's message, blue for my text. Black inside the box is John's words, outside the box mine as is standard.
I said "John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge." John's spin on this:
I think you go reread the post he made. It starts out with telling me I am wrong to question an instructor's instruction and ask AZ's opinion. Well no that ain't what I said, not even close!
Then of course he calls into question my ability to discern the situation and quote properly. Why would I say anything like that? Could it be for things like the sterling example above of him changing what I said and spinning it beyond recognition? How about his deliberate misunderstanding of what the video producer said about english and a cue ball's path? Seems like clearly quoting improperly and a willful failure to discern the situation in the videos.
Then he gets around to discussing the topic.
Does Hu NEED to be here in the thread I started? Could it survive and the topic, which is "what is english and does it affect the cue ball's path?", be discussed without his participation and comment's about me personally? Actually the topic seemed to be let's make fun of this other person's video's because I'm(John) so much smarter than him. John's attack on the video poster still strikes me as ridiculous because even if John disagrees with the video maker's definition of english the maker had described how he uses the word before making the statement that John disagrees with purely to ridicule the maker as he and the maker both seem to agree that sidespin doesn't alter the path of the cue ball off of the object ball.
No he doesn't need to be here. He chose to post and chose to be antagonistic. As he said before, "that's the way I roll" in reference to his intention to be rude and harassing at ever increasing levels. Always funny when folks ask questions and answer them too. John fails to recall that I didn't reply to many of his attacks with attacks of my own. Here I pointed out John was wrong about his claim that english applied to top and bottom. A handful of knowledgeable posters have backed that up. John then moves on to apply his interpretation of the word "english" to the other person's video and declare the person posting the video not knowledgeable enough to post video and wrong about english. I can declare anybody wrong about anything if I first redefine the words they are using. According to no less an authority on all things great and small than John, the video's creator had already specified that "english" only applied to side so his later statements that John disagreed with are true for almost all practical purposes and are indeed one of the accepted "truths" of pool.
But as you can see I came back with a reference to "top english" as well as further references gleaned from the Billiard Encyclopedia.
Sorry I don't sit around and make up stories about my "playing days". I can name names and get within a month or so for all my stories. I don't make up vague references to busting hustlers and wax forth as if I have been the greatest undercover player the world has known. Hu does that. I don't normally care, when I start reading one of those stories I just skip it because I feel it's likely untrue and is boring anyway. I skip ahead to the moral just like I do with fairy tales.
If he wants to discuss things without getting personal then by all means. But if he wants to stalk me through the forum with personal attacks just as he did here in this thread then I will call a spade a spade.[/COLOR] Anyone interested in checking will find that John posts after me far more often than I post after John. Some of his vilest personal attacks have been deleted as he is well aware of. Note that the BS in this post isn't a personal attack in his mind. John has one set of rules for John, another for everyone else.
My mom didn't teach me to not say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say. She taught me too stand up for myself. I won't be bullied or insulted by Hu without rebuttal. If that offends you then I'd suggest you stop reading when you see his name and mine in the same thread because you might see me going off if he decides to be obnoxious.
You can clearly see that I don't hold a grudge as I have posted in at least one other thread along with him and not said a word TO HIM or ABOUT HIM.
Now if you read my entire original post again without John's added spin claiming I said things I never said after reading post one in this thread it stands on it's own. John slammed somebody for making several correct statements. That makes someone look pretty ignorant of pool knowledge and it isn't the person that posted the video. I am bolding entire thoughts for those that can't tell the difference between what I actually said and John's translations of what I said.
(my original post)
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.
Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.
Hu
(end original post)
John repeatedly demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the pool term "english" in this thread and he also demonstrates his problems with quoting without embellishing putting his interpretation on what is said. When I quote I do the same as most reasonable people, cut and paste longer quotes or I may type two or three words carefully verifying them for accuracy.
John's latest thing is making the claims that I am a poser everywhere. Anybody that reads my posts from the beginning, middle or latest and thinks I am a poser is welcome to think so. None of those that were around during the same time period have ever expressed any doubts. Like me they have been there, done that, and don't need a t-shirt to prove it. John cheerfully puts his own spin on what I have said and then assaults that. I haven't stooped to doing that to John, he does a fine enough job of making a monkey out of himself without me twisting things.
Hu
What is at core of your post is really "does English refer to all off-center hits?". I don't think so. While in reality the only difference between topsin and draw is where you hit the ball, the actual term "English" I have only seen used to talk about left and right spin applied to the cue ball.
The tricky part is when you hit something like high right. Is that called Top Right English? Or Follow Right English? Just Top Right? Right Follow? eh?
The tricky part is when you hit something like high right. Is that called Top Right English? Or Follow Right English? Just Top Right? Right Follow? eh?
Hu is a hunnert percent right on this folks. JB is an inciteful, disrespectful, and duplicitous, member of this forum. The case in point is right before you. Why in the world should a thread so simple and unassuming as describing spin on a cue ball be turned into a big pissing match is beyond me, unless it was by design. Which I think it was.
I believe that Dave has already done several videos along this topic. I am sure he will be here shortly to point us to the relevant videos.
The initial collision between the cueball and the object ball ALWAYS results in exactly the same initial cue ball direction. What chafed me about the instruction I saw on YouTube was that the implication is that this direction continues indefinitely. But in fact that is not true as we all know that even though the initial direction is always the same the practical direction off the tangent line changes based on speed and spin.
So my beef is that the information is incomplete at best and confusing to the target audience of beginners.
I propose that all instructors stop using 'english' and simply refer to off center hits as applying spin. Top Spin, Reverse Spin, Left Spin, Right Spin. To get these spins you hit the ball high, low, left or right.
Let's erase the outdated word with the proper one and end the confusion. Then the next round of lessons on youtube can be started with modern terms and the actual lesson then inclusive of the four basic spins and their effects on the cue ball post collision.
Um, can you tell me which poster made a personal insult first?
First I wasn't slamming anyone. I have a differing opinion than a person who posted some instructional videos on YouTube. I brought that opinion here without linking to that person's videos and without naming them.
I asked for the opinions of the board and we are having a pretty good conversation I think - once the personal slurs of Hu and your off-topic insults are subtracted. It's fair to say that had Hu not insulted me then I would not have responded in kind.
So save it. Hu tried to toss in a little insult and it backfired on him.
He's the kind of troll bully that I won't lay down for.
According to you. However according to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and Dr. Dave Alciatore I am right.
Who to believe? Anonymous troll who claims to have been the nemesis of hustlers everywhere or three scholars who have studied the subject in detail?
No, I said I have always though of it one way and I disagree with the instructor's content and asked for the opinions of the board.
I did not say I am wrong. I said I might be wrong and if so then it wouldn't be the first time. Then I went on to cite my findings based on further research and concluded "for the moment" (that's a quote, me quoting myself from the earlier post you are referencing) that I am right.
Thanks, you sure are putting in a lot of work here. Got something to prove?
Please post the part YOU construe as slamming? And in fact the statements you consider to be correct are not entirely correct. Cameron Smith said in the very first answer that he has always heard it both ways. Rubino/Stein and Dr. Dave all disagree with you.
So now other people can't read either?
Um, I already refuted this with links. Also other people have said that they have heard top and bottom referred to as top english and bottom english. It doesn't matter that the English people use the proper term "side" for SIDE SPIN. It only matters how WE use the term "english" and again, SOME people think it's only referring to side spin while others think it refers to all spin.
Um, this is WHY I brought the question to this forum where most of the people do in fact know the term.
And for that matter I could have made up the story about the YouTube pool instructor as a backdrop to frame the question of what is "english" and how does it affect the cue ball's path after contact. Notice there are no names or links in my post. Kind of like your proclivity to tell us stories about the times in the bar when you saved the day by hustling the hustler.
Yes, which is why I augment my opinon with citations. Where are yours?
Ok, I and several others think so after reading your posts.
Can anyone on this board verify that Hu every snapped off anyone above a B player for anything more than lunch money?
You can't get the t-shirt because you weren't there and unlike Woodstock you can't buy a t-shirt on Ebay either to prove you were there. Name some names who can back up anything you have ever said about your glory days. Come on man, you were such a great player able to snap off road players at will so someone must have seen you in action. Even the biggest jerkoffs in the pool room got respect if they could play some. So SOMEONE must know you. You see this whole "like me" schtick is just another way to try and identify with a group you don't belong to.
If ANYONE on this board emails me a story about Hu where he won more than $500 from an A player or better that can be verified then I will make a LOUD PUBLIC APOLOGY on this forum to Hu. Prior to that happening I will consider Hu's stories to be ambiguous personal fiction.
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Hu says:
You really do live in a fantasy world don't you?
First the only personal issues between us started when YOU called me a jackass in my own thread after YOU took a post where I was discussing your statement about the topic personally.
I haven't been vile to you yet. My thread was locked because it had become a cesspool and YOU were the primary reason it got that way.
As for calling you out on your BS. That's exactly what I am doing. YOU could have spoken to the point of "english" and tangents without being personal - but you CHOSE to go there.
So Mr. "this is how I roll" - I can roll that way too.
But you completely missed the point. The point is that I can post behind you in a thread and even respond to something you said that is on topic and not personally attack you.
Check the calcutta thread for proof of that. I dont hold grudges. You do apparently as your new vocation seems to be tossing in jabs and falsehoods where you can.
Congratulations on seeing your provocation result in another ten off-topic posts. As a pool player you were probably nothing special but as a junior troll you have potential.
Just an observation based on your posting history.
You really do live in a fantasy world don't you?
First the only personal issues between us started when YOU called me a jackass in my own thread after YOU took a post where I was discussing your statement about the topic personally.
I haven't been vile to you yet. My thread was locked because it had become a cesspool and YOU were the primary reason it got that way.
As for calling you out on your BS. That's exactly what I am doing. YOU could have spoken to the point of "english" and tangents without being personal - but you CHOSE to go there.
So Mr. "this is how I roll" - I can roll that way too.
But you completely missed the point. The point is that I can post behind you in a thread and even respond to something you said that is on topic and not personally attack you.
Check the calcutta thread for proof of that. I dont hold grudges. You do apparently as your new vocation seems to be tossing in jabs and falsehoods where you can.
Congratulations on seeing your provocation result in another ten off-topic posts. As a pool player you were probably nothing special but as a junior troll you have potential.
Just an observation based on your posting history.
no alphabet soup when I gambled
John,
No alphabet soup when I gambled. I played whoever came through the door for what they wanted to play for. I did the same when I traveled. Good enough for me. No idea where you keep coming up with the Robin Hood shee-yit, I can think of one instance I posted about where a friend asked me to get his money back and I did. Even that was in the context of a longer story, a minor part of it. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. A lot of the things you have said about me make little sense including some of your accusations concerning what I have said about you. Seems you have pissing contests with so many people you can't keep your story straight.
I reposted my original post and bolded complete thoughts because many people read your spin in later posts in all threads and don't go back and check what was really said. Maybe your claims about the videos were just lies, you do seem to have a willingness to bend the truth. Wholesale fabrication wouldn't be out of the question. However I doubt you are capable of enough original thought to do that. You spend a lot of time bragging about stealing other people's original ideas. You are also proud that you use a sweat shop to produce the cases with your name on them. I wonder how many people have bought a case from you that your total input was to sketch a leather design or copy bits and pieces of other people's designs and call them yours then your people making less than $300 a month each do the actual work. I'm guessing at their pay, according to a recent article Honda pays an average of $280 a month to it's workers in their Chinese factory. Feel free to correct me if my guess is low, we both know you aren't paying them but a small fraction of what you would have to pay US workers but you surely charge US prices for the work they turn out! If you really want to get personal you have put a lot more of your business on the forum than I have.
It's true that the people I played with are dead and gone or I have long ago lost contact with them. I never paid much attention to names because most people gambling weren't using their own anyway. I never used more than Hu myself. Other people called me by a bunch of other nicknames, I didn't care as long as it wasn't pool related. I met Keith McCready in Greenway and tried to get together for a match-up that didn't happen, playing even. I wouldn't remember his name had the Color of Money not came out afterwards and I recognized him in it. I think he was using his own name in Greenway but I still wouldn't have remembered it six months later. I'd never connect the Keith of today with the guy I met in Greenway either without the bridge of COM connecting the two.
Unlike the people that woof for days and play for a few minutes that you consider the real subculture of pool, the idea for most of us was to get the money and get out without making waves. There were a few showboats like Keith and Fats but there were also a lot of people quietly making a good living without being known. I didn't pass on big bets when they came to me but I didn't look for them, the last thing I wanted was a reputation as a pool player.
Hu
John,
No alphabet soup when I gambled. I played whoever came through the door for what they wanted to play for. I did the same when I traveled. Good enough for me. No idea where you keep coming up with the Robin Hood shee-yit, I can think of one instance I posted about where a friend asked me to get his money back and I did. Even that was in the context of a longer story, a minor part of it. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. A lot of the things you have said about me make little sense including some of your accusations concerning what I have said about you. Seems you have pissing contests with so many people you can't keep your story straight.
I reposted my original post and bolded complete thoughts because many people read your spin in later posts in all threads and don't go back and check what was really said. Maybe your claims about the videos were just lies, you do seem to have a willingness to bend the truth. Wholesale fabrication wouldn't be out of the question. However I doubt you are capable of enough original thought to do that. You spend a lot of time bragging about stealing other people's original ideas. You are also proud that you use a sweat shop to produce the cases with your name on them. I wonder how many people have bought a case from you that your total input was to sketch a leather design or copy bits and pieces of other people's designs and call them yours then your people making less than $300 a month each do the actual work. I'm guessing at their pay, according to a recent article Honda pays an average of $280 a month to it's workers in their Chinese factory. Feel free to correct me if my guess is low, we both know you aren't paying them but a small fraction of what you would have to pay US workers but you surely charge US prices for the work they turn out! If you really want to get personal you have put a lot more of your business on the forum than I have.
It's true that the people I played with are dead and gone or I have long ago lost contact with them. I never paid much attention to names because most people gambling weren't using their own anyway. I never used more than Hu myself. Other people called me by a bunch of other nicknames, I didn't care as long as it wasn't pool related. I met Keith McCready in Greenway and tried to get together for a match-up that didn't happen, playing even. I wouldn't remember his name had the Color of Money not came out afterwards and I recognized him in it. I think he was using his own name in Greenway but I still wouldn't have remembered it six months later. I'd never connect the Keith of today with the guy I met in Greenway either without the bridge of COM connecting the two.
Unlike the people that woof for days and play for a few minutes that you consider the real subculture of pool, the idea for most of us was to get the money and get out without making waves. There were a few showboats like Keith and Fats but there were also a lot of people quietly making a good living without being known. I didn't pass on big bets when they came to me but I didn't look for them, the last thing I wanted was a reputation as a pool player.
Hu
Ha!
John,
As usual you twist things in your own bent world. What I actually said was, "You are doing your best to derail the thread acting like a jackass and being quick to take every post the wrong way." That is by no means saying you were a jackass, only behaving like one at the moment.
On the other hand here is a brief excerpt of what you said about me: "YOU repsonded like an ASSHOLE and then when I asked you to please keep the thread on track you further responded like a BIGGER ASSHOLE and threatened to continue being an asshole as much as you wanted to be. So feel free to continue being a huge gaping asshole. Because to me that is all you are. You are a major asshat"
How you gonna spin this Johnny Boy?
Hopefully the mod's will forgive these brief excerpts to prove to John that he can't rewrite history, I have the original version!
Hu
John,
As usual you twist things in your own bent world. What I actually said was, "You are doing your best to derail the thread acting like a jackass and being quick to take every post the wrong way." That is by no means saying you were a jackass, only behaving like one at the moment.
On the other hand here is a brief excerpt of what you said about me: "YOU repsonded like an ASSHOLE and then when I asked you to please keep the thread on track you further responded like a BIGGER ASSHOLE and threatened to continue being an asshole as much as you wanted to be. So feel free to continue being a huge gaping asshole. Because to me that is all you are. You are a major asshat"
How you gonna spin this Johnny Boy?
Hopefully the mod's will forgive these brief excerpts to prove to John that he can't rewrite history, I have the original version!
Hu
LeeLenker
Registered
Around these parts (central Pa) we talk about pool so much that we have simplifide it to natural, low, inside, outside. I have also noticed some people using the words "top spin". It is impossible to impart top spin on the cue ball so natural or rolling (dare i say) english should be how it is described.
JB I guess I'm not clear what your trying to say. Sorry. My point is the tangent line is determined by the contact point or as some say the release point and the CB MUST take that line. Spin Draw Follow only take effect after the CB has traveled some distance along the tangent. I would also agree that pure side spin does not alter the Path to the OB or for a short time after it hit an OB. The path changes either by friction from the cloth on a slow moving ball as it moves from skid to roll or and more easily seen if the CB is hit below center with spin. But all this is just getting the ball the where it contacts the OB. At that point the Tangent is established and the CB takes that line.
Interesting stuff.
There are also some gems in this article. See in particular the first section, on Jack Carr, who has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Interesting to see that the use of chalk (or plaster from the walls) pre-dates the introduction of the leather tip.
Elsewhere on the same site, the great billiard writer Riso Levi is quoted on the usage of the term 'English'. It is notable that he talks of 'English' as being equivalent to 'side' (as distinct from top or bottom spin). The quote is not dated, but I believe that Levi was writing about 100 years ago:
'American billiard players never speak of side on a ball in any other way than as "right English" or "left English," as the case may be. How the term "English" for "side" originated I have never been able to discover. I have discussed the question with more than one American player, and also with one writer on the American game, without being able to elicit the required information. It may be that many years ago, when the effect of side on a ball first became well known, Englishmen who visited the States were in the habit of putting on "side" apart from billiards, as in the old days many Americans did when on a visit to Great Britain. If this is so, English players might have retaliated by coining the terms "right American" and "left American," but, fortunately, they did not do so.'
I think the "English" have the best term "screw" instead of english or side spin.
I know when I'm playing on a bed getting the felt down I "screw" my balls into a tight pocket.
This just seems to flow a little better than side spin or english.
So I vote for the english term "screw"
So there John, if you don't like that go "side spin" yourself.
Cause you know I'm right..bloody well right.. bloody well right you know
I know when I'm playing on a bed getting the felt down I "screw" my balls into a tight pocket.
This just seems to flow a little better than side spin or english.
So I vote for the english term "screw"
So there John, if you don't like that go "side spin" yourself.
Cause you know I'm right..bloody well right.. bloody well right you know
English
Growing up in New York as a young teenager in the 60's. Where 14.1 was so heavily played. My older brother would take me to pool rooms with him.
I would only hear the term "English" when it pertained to hitting the cue ball on the Right & Left sides (which includes high & low right & left).
High was always "Follow" and Low was always "Draw".
I still think of English as the right & left side only.
Growing up in New York as a young teenager in the 60's. Where 14.1 was so heavily played. My older brother would take me to pool rooms with him.
I would only hear the term "English" when it pertained to hitting the cue ball on the Right & Left sides (which includes high & low right & left).
High was always "Follow" and Low was always "Draw".
I still think of English as the right & left side only.
It's really called "duckbutter" or "muckinpucky" or sometimes even "dewey".
John,
On the first issue you're just talking semantics. I think for most people "english" is a term commonly used ONLY to refer to side spin. Personally I think it is just much easier to say top, bottom, and side. That aside there is no issue if he (and I) chose to define "english" as side spin only then so be it.
As to the second issue. If the balls are dirty, side spin can have a very big effect on the path the object ball takes. On the other hand if the balls are immaculate I'd say it has very little if any effect on the direction of the object ball. Also effecting this is the angle at which the cue ball is striking the object ball. The thinner the hit the less effect side spin has on the object ball's trajectory.
JMHO
On the first issue you're just talking semantics. I think for most people "english" is a term commonly used ONLY to refer to side spin. Personally I think it is just much easier to say top, bottom, and side. That aside there is no issue if he (and I) chose to define "english" as side spin only then so be it.
As to the second issue. If the balls are dirty, side spin can have a very big effect on the path the object ball takes. On the other hand if the balls are immaculate I'd say it has very little if any effect on the direction of the object ball. Also effecting this is the angle at which the cue ball is striking the object ball. The thinner the hit the less effect side spin has on the object ball's trajectory.
JMHO
Who is going to be the first to get banned?
Keep it up.....
Keep it up.....
Yes, I agree with both of the instructor's points.
Many English speakers use "english" to refer only to side spin. Some use it to refer to any spin. I think the former is the clearer and more useful way to use the term. Also, my personal preference is to use lower-case "e" when talking about the billiard term, although my editor does not agree.
There are several compound terms that are in common use which tend to reinforce the "side only" use, such as "reverse english," "running english," "inside english," "outside english," etc. Those do not primarily refer to draw or follow; they refer to what kind of side spin is on the cue ball.
It is pointless to argue whether one or the other has historical precedent. Usage in the US (which is not the entire English-speaking world) varies. In Byrne's "New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards," he states, "In this book 'English' means side spin and side spin only." That statement serves two purposes. It clarifies how he is using the word and it implicitly acknowledges that others may use the term in other ways.
If the historical precedent is interesting, the place to start is Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards," which gives the definitions and traces the historical usage of over 2000 cue-sport-related terms, including "English" (his preferred capitalization). The first use he has found is in the New York Times in 1873. Anyone who thinks he might want to become a student of the game should get a copy of this book.
But most of the time when I write about spin on the cue ball, I try to avoid the word "english." I know that there are people who use it differently than I do, and if I want to communicate with them -- instead of writing them off as pitiful, ignorant, worthless dregs, beneath contempt and beyond any hope of salvation -- I know that I need to use words in a way that will mean something to everyone. So, I tend to use the words "side spin" a lot.
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