epoxy finish

K

kiinstructor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, Im finally going to try eopxy finish. I saw a cuemaker display at a show and was impressed. I asked about his finish and he was helpful in explaining it to me. Said he used Devcon 5 minute epoxy just heated slightly in a warming cup so he could put it on with a credit card and let it flow. Similar to the way Chris Hightower does it but with a brush. Pops the air bubbles with a propane torch and lets it harden. I was a little skeptical about the 5 minute in that I was afraid or yellowing both initially and in the future. Giving up the waterborne finished, there just not hard enough or cant seem to get that deep look. Cant stand the bluish tint. Took a piece of dowel and applied some the other day and after it hardened sanded and got it to a satin sheen at it feels beautiful. The waterborne seems to fell a bit sticky in the final gloss. I mean after its buffed. Looks ok but I think the epoxy looks and feels better and more professional IMO. Tried target 9300 and all the gnereal finishes. Have not tried the ceramithane but figure its similar. Just need to figure out whats the most econimical way to get good epoxy. And is all epoxy the same? Jump in guys an d thanks
Mark
 
Epoxy

I'm doing a couple sneakies with epoxy right now. I've applied the first coat. I'll try to get them done this weekend and let you know how it goes.

I used a foam brush and unless you are very gentle the bubbles can get out of hand. I didn't try popping them with a torch, as I probably would have just burnt my garage down;-)
 
Check with JoeyinCali, he knows some good epoxy to use. Its called RAKA. I just started using it, and so far, it seems to be just as clear as west system 207. This is the 4th different kind of epoxy I've tried for finishes and it and west 207 are my favorites so far.

Joe
 
kiinstructor said:
Well, Im finally going to try eopxy finish. I saw a cuemaker display at a show and was impressed. I asked about his finish and he was helpful in explaining it to me. Said he used Devcon 5 minute epoxy just heated slightly in a warming cup so he could put it on with a credit card and let it flow. Similar to the way Chris Hightower does it but with a brush. Pops the air bubbles with a propane torch and lets it harden. I was a little skeptical about the 5 minute in that I was afraid or yellowing both initially and in the future. Giving up the waterborne finished, there just not hard enough or cant seem to get that deep look. Cant stand the bluish tint. Took a piece of dowel and applied some the other day and after it hardened sanded and got it to a satin sheen at it feels beautiful. The waterborne seems to fell a bit sticky in the final gloss. I mean after its buffed. Looks ok but I think the epoxy looks and feels better and more professional IMO. Tried target 9300 and all the gnereal finishes. Have not tried the ceramithane but figure its similar. Just need to figure out whats the most econimical way to get good epoxy. And is all epoxy the same? Jump in guys an d thanks
Mark
Click to expand...


The devcon 5 min epoxy was never meant to be a finishing epoxy and will never polish to a bright shine.

West system 105/207 and the new RAKA UV are both good epoxy for finishing and polish up pretty good because they are rock hard. Most of the time the bubbles are the wood out gassing and not the epoxy. If you rub in a good sealer first it will eliminate most of the bubbles. Open grain woods bubble more that's why you need to seal them.

UV finish is very expensive and the automotive clears are toxic.

The target finishes all get that bluish cast to it if you put it on too thick.

I use ceramithane over G5 epoxy. You have to wait a week for the waterborne finishes to fully cure before you buff it out or it won't be hard enough. It is a long time for finishing a cue but it pays off with a deep shine.

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
The devcon 5 min epoxy was never meant to be a finishing epoxy and will never polish to a bright shine.

West system 105/207 and the new RAKA UV are both good epoxy for finishing and polish up pretty good because they are rock hard. Most of the time the bubbles are the wood out gassing and not the epoxy. If you rub in a good sealer first it will eliminate most of the bubbles. Open grain woods bubble more that's why you need to seal them.

UV finish is very expensive and the automotive clears are toxic.

The target finishes all get that bluish cast to it if you put it on too thick.

I use ceramithane over G5 epoxy. You have to wait a week for the waterborne finishes to fully cure before you buff it out or it won't be hard enough. It is a long time for finishing a cue but it pays off with a deep shine.

Kim
Click to expand...

I was using the epoxy coating and tried several methods and just couldn't get the bubbles totally out of the finish. It was really starting to discourage me so I decided to try Kim's method using the Ceramithane. I have tried it on 2 house cues that a guy wanted new ferrules and tips put on for his home. Decided that these were great canidates for a refinish. ;) I just sanded down the old finish until smooth, then 2 coats one day, and then scuffed and smoothed and 2 more coats. I am so pleased as in just 2 attempts using this the coating is almost so smooth you wouldn't have to do anything to it. Then I wet sanded 1500 to get perfectly smooth then 2000, 3200, 4000, buff and wax. Great looking results and hard enough that it didn't ding after some small drop tests. And the best part is no bubbles even using a foam brush.
 
At the risk of being wrong, which has never stopped me before, mix ratios are based on volume not weight.
These resins & hardeners are sold by volume, ie quarts, pints, gals, etc.
That's a measure of volume, not weight. That's the scale by which they are meant to be mixed.
2 Parts Resin to 1 Part Hardener means just that; 1qt resin to 1pt hardener.
The manufacturer has already taken the guess-work (in this case the weighing) out of the equation
by adjusting the density accordingly.
If you're measuring/mixing by wght., you may be getting your volumes off slightly due to the density
of each of the components.
Probably not a big deal as epoxy is pretty forgiving in regards to mix ratios.
In other words, even if you get the mix-ratio not quite right, the resulting epoxy is still stronger than what you need.
If you want to feel that you are being more exact in your mixing by using a weight scale, you may be
actually defeating your purpose.
Scales are cool, just not necessary here.
BTW, the same applies to mixing auto-clears, volume not weight.

KJ
 
KJ Cues said:
At the risk of being wrong, which has never stopped me before, mix ratios are based on volume not weight.
These resins & hardeners are sold by volume, ie quarts, pints, gals, etc.
That's a measure of volume, not weight. That's the scale by which they are meant to be mixed.
2 Parts Resin to 1 Part Hardener means just that; 1qt resin to 1pt hardener.
The manufacturer has already taken the guess-work (in this case the weighing) out of the equation
by adjusting the density accordingly.
If you're measuring/mixing by wght., you may be getting your volumes off slightly due to the density
of each of the components.
Probably not a big deal as epoxy is pretty forgiving in regards to mix ratios.
In other words, even if you get the mix-ratio not quite right, the resulting epoxy is still stronger than what you need.
If you want to feel that you are being more exact in your mixing by using a weight scale, you may be
actually defeating your purpose.
Scales are cool, just not necessary here.
BTW, the same applies to mixing auto-clears, volume not weight.

KJ
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct. The mix ratio for the RAKA uv is usually by volume. I called their tech dept and asked for the weight mix ratio because I always mix epoxy on a scale. They said it was .43/1

Kim
 
epoxy

System 3 recommends weighing portions on one of it's laminating products.
It's ratio is that critical. Weighing is much more accurate.
 
observation

using epoxies and air bubbles, i believe its not the heat from the propane torch that burst the air bubbles, its the carbon dioxide, so after i spread the epox on the cue and hang it to let it dry, i slowly exhale on the cue, and by the way do not inhale with your mouth close to the cue. [ i have made that mistake before ]
 
desi2960 said:
and by the way do not inhale with your mouth close to the cue. [ i have made that mistake before ]
Click to expand...

LOL Taste bad?

I finished a lot of cues with west system a long time ago. I'd wipe the cue with my hand as a squeegee (nitrile rubber gloves). Sand lightly between coats & within 3-4 coats the cue could be polished like glass. It was very, very hard & durable. It's probably the most durable finish I have ever used. However, it turns yellow over time. Every epoxy I tried turned yellow, but none were as strong & durable as west. Nowadays I hear there are epoxies that don't yellow, one made by west, but I haven't tried. My finish is great for me so I likely won't change. But I am very much interested in trying the clear west as a base coat, hoping it'll be as hard as the old west that I used to finish with.
 
qbilder said:
LOL Taste bad?

I finished a lot of cues with west system a long time ago. I'd wipe the cue with my hand as a squeegee (nitrile rubber gloves). Sand lightly between coats & within 3-4 coats the cue could be polished like glass. It was very, very hard & durable. It's probably the most durable finish I have ever used. However, it turns yellow over time. Every epoxy I tried turned yellow, but none were as strong & durable as west. Nowadays I hear there are epoxies that don't yellow, one made by west, but I haven't tried. My finish is great for me so I likely won't change. But I am very much interested in trying the clear west as a base coat, hoping it'll be as hard as the old west that I used to finish with.
Click to expand...
UV Inhibitors that are in Epoxy and Auto Clear coats just slow the yellowing process down. They do not eliminate it all together. The higher end Auto Clear coats must have a lot more of the inhibitors in them as they are even slower to yellow than the Epoxy finishes with it in them. Even with Auto clear coats the inhibitors are mostly in the finish part and not the hardener. So the hardener has a lower shelf life than the resin or finish part does. I have several different cues and pieces of wood in my shop that get light all day, but not direct sunlight. A butt with PPG Clear Coat on it is a little yellow after 20 years. Epoxy finish without the UV inhibitor is very yellow after only about 12 years. Epoxy with UV inhibitor is about where the PPG is in less than 10 years. Super glue finish is a little more yellow than the epoxy with UV inhibitor from the same general time period.
 
desi2960 said:
using epoxies and air bubbles, i believe its not the heat from the propane torch that burst the air bubbles, its the carbon dioxide, so after i spread the epox on the cue and hang it to let it dry, i slowly exhale on the cue, and by the way do not inhale with your mouth close to the cue. [ i have made that mistake before ]
Click to expand...

I got epoxy in my moustache doing that..... it wasn't pretty.

LOL

Kim
 
qbilder said:
LOL Taste bad?

I finished a lot of cues with west system a long time ago. I'd wipe the cue with my hand as a squeegee (nitrile rubber gloves). Sand lightly between coats & within 3-4 coats the cue could be polished like glass. It was very, very hard & durable. It's probably the most durable finish I have ever used. However, it turns yellow over time. Every epoxy I tried turned yellow, but none were as strong & durable as west. Nowadays I hear there are epoxies that don't yellow, one made by west, but I haven't tried. My finish is great for me so I likely won't change. But I am very much interested in trying the clear west as a base coat, hoping it'll be as hard as the old west that I used to finish with.
Click to expand...

If you use the 207A special hardener, it won't yellow. The only thing is it takes too long to set up. 4 to 6 hours. It is very hard and you can buff it up pretty good.

KIm
 
whammo57 said:
If you use the 207A special hardener, it won't yellow. The only thing is it takes too long to set up. 4 to 6 hours. It is very hard and you can buff it up pretty good.

KIm
Click to expand...

I've been using the west 207 - the latest formula, and the dry time can be cut down a bit by warming the unmixed parts in a microwave to about 80-90 degrees. I also found I got less bubbles on stuff like zebrawood which always seemes to have bubbles coming out of it. It does polish out very well if done correctly.
I also use the west system scale which gives you the proper weight ratios right on the lid. Those scales are the best, I liked it so much I bought a second one. One in the shop for 206 and one in my basement for the 207. I bought it here, it was the cheapest for the set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170704665487
 
I had problems with bubbles while applying epoxy with a foam brush. I think the brush was the problem. Once I started putting it on with my finger (with a rubber glove) 90% of the bubbles went away.

There is a product called Eat-A-Bubble that works very good at eliminating the bubbles that come up while finishing. You can spray it right on the cue after applying the epoxy while it is rotaing and the bubbles just disapear.

I also found out the thicker you put the epoxy on the more bubbles you can get. I try to put it on as thin as I can. It usually takes me 4-5 coats to get .007" - .008" of finish on a cue.
 
Kim's advice is good, put a thin seal coat on first. Some of the bubbles you are getting are air leeching out of the wood. Try a thin coat of "Dewaxed" shellac like Bulls-eye. Or make your own using Super Blonde flakes. Pretty much anything will stick to Shellac. It will impart a slight amber tone. I like how it warms up the wood a little bit but I'd suggest testing it while your piece is still oversize.
 
qbilder said:
Every epoxy I tried turned yellow, but none were as strong & durable as west. Nowadays I hear there are epoxies that don't yellow, one made by west, but I haven't tried. My finish is great for me so I likely won't change. But I am very much interested in trying the clear west as a base coat, hoping it'll be as hard as the old west that I used to finish with.
Click to expand...

Have you tried System Three Clear Coat? I have used it on several fretless bass fingerboards (ala Jaco Pastorius). It cures clear, stays clear, and is hard enough to sand and polish like a mirror after it cures. It also holds up to the abuse that strong hands and round-wound nickel electric bass strings give to a fingerboard.

It's very thin and slow curing, so you will need to keep it turning to avoid runs, but bubbles shouldn't be a problem. The low viscosity and slow curing time allows them to pop on their own.
 
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