Europe rocks

[NYC cue dude]

I have many, many good friends that are top US players. With that said, European players do start off playing with a greater advantage. The youth in Germany, for example, play in clubs (kind of like the YMCA here), but solely dedicated to pool. Not only are these children (most of the population) exposed to playing young, but they all receive coaching in a nurturing, non intimidating and clean atmosphere. No gambling, drinking or smoking is allowed.

Once in the club, which is free to join and play at (funded through donations and fundraisers etc) the children are evaluated, coached and given a level at which they compete at in their very elaborate league system. All played must compete in 3 different disciplines. 8 ball, 9ball and 14.1. As you get better, you compete on regional, than state, nationwide, culminating in an opportunity to compete at the European championships.

It isthis very system that nurtured Thorsten Hohmann, who by the age of 16, after playing only 4 years, was playing world class speed. He even played pool in the sportsman division of the german army. That was his role.

Sadly, here in America, there are MANY potential pool champions that will HOLD A CUE IN THEIR HAND. They will have gone through life without the opportunity to even try.

The other problem, IMO, is that once a person develops either some ability or passion for the game here, there isn't any discipline and the only route to pursue is hustling, the seedy side of the game, again, IMHO.

And yes, I would take the top 5 german players against the top 5 Americans in either 8, 10ball or 14.1.

Rg

 

[sjm]

China Open, wow what a great international tournament.

And EUROPE ROCKS with an all Europe final.

Congrats to the Winner Thorsten Hohmann en runner up Niels Feijen.

No USA player on the last 8.....

Yes, well played Europe. Thorsten, who has, in recent years, lived in both New York and Florida, and has made so many American friends because of it, has a very big following here. His win is a very popular one here in America, too.

 

[Craig Fales]

I wouldn't say ditch digger vs medical but years ago I read that in some European countries at an early age you are given a test (similar to IQ) based on the results a person is judged eligible for a trade school or higher education such as the University

In Soviet Europe education chooses you.

 

[lee brett]

I have many, many good friends that are top US players. With that said, European players do start off playing with a greater advantage. The youth in Germany, for example, play in clubs (kind of like the YMCA here), but solely dedicated to pool. Not only are these children (most of the population) exposed to playing young, but they all receive coaching in a nurturing, non intimidating and clean atmosphere. No gambling, drinking or smoking is allowed.

Once in the club, which is free to join and play at (funded through donations and fundraisers etc) the children are evaluated, coached and given a level at which they compete at in their very elaborate league system. All played must compete in 3 different disciplines. 8 ball, 9ball and 14.1. As you get better, you compete on regional, than state, nationwide, culminating in an opportunity to compete at the European championships.

It isthis very system that nurtured Thorsten Hohmann, who by the age of 16, after playing only 4 years, was playing world class speed. He even played pool in the sportsman division of the german army. That was his role.

Sadly, here in America, there are MANY potential pool champions that will HOLD A CUE IN THEIR HAND. They will have gone through life without the opportunity to even try.

The other problem, IMO, is that once a person develops either some ability or passion for the game here, there isn't any discipline and the only route to pursue is hustling, the seedy side of the game, again, IMHO.

And yes, I would take the top 5 german players against the top 5 Americans in either 8, 10ball or 14.1.

Rg

there are many great players all over america, they just need to get the top 32 juniors in the country and have them at a training camp and teach them the 5 d's.

DESIRE
DEDICATION
DISICIPLINE
DRIVE
DETERMINATION

and it wouldnt be long before the americans had numerous top players like the german top 5 but even more, im english not american and i know there is massive talent, im hoping to train myself, because the more top american players there are winning the better it is for the game of pool financially.

 

[ShootingArts]

thorsten

Yes, well played Europe. Thorsten, who has, in recent years, lived in both New York and Florida, and has made so many American friends because of it, has a very big following here. His win is a very popular one here in America, too.

Thorsten is a good guy. Aside from that, like most winners he came here to the US to hone his skills against the toughest steel available.

The gloating when Europe wins one reminds me of an ad in a bloodhorse magazine. Two page full color ad, the horse with name long forgotten beat Avenger M!

The horses met nine times, Avenger M won eight times.

Hu

 

[NYC cue dude]

Thorsten is a good guy. Aside from that, like most winners he came here to the US to hone his skills against the toughest steel available.

The gloating when Europe wins one reminds me of an ad in a bloodhorse magazine. Two page full color ad, the horse with name long forgotten beat Avenger M!

The horses met nine times, Avenger M won eight times.

Hu

Thorsten didn't necessarily come to the US to hone his skills. He was already a world class, elite player with a 9 ball world championship under his belt. He came here because he was being managed by dragon promotions and universal smart shaft. There were definitive financial advantages for him to be here. Most worldwide tournaments with decent payoffs are held here in the states. It's just not feasible to jump on a plane to compete here every few weeks or so. We've tried to convince both engert and ortmann to do the same, but of course, they have resisted. It seems only ralf andthorsten can be counted on consistently.

Honing his skills has just been gravy for him.

Rg

 

[pvc lou]

typical

"I'm curious as to how many players the United States is allowed to have compete in so-called "world-class" tournaments, as compared to the European Union.

I mean, since it is the European Union, I would think they should be represented as one entity, much like the United States. If not, then we should at least be able to send players from each of our collective 50 States, two representatives from each State as an example."

There is not enough quality in the US to send 2 players from every state! Of course there are some very good players in the US but the top is very, very small and I have the feeling that there is not much below it that can make it towards the top. (please tell me this is not true).
How different it is in Europe, many country's (states) have top players. Some country's have a special training program, special coaches, special youth programs, sport psychologist ect.

Typical European snobbery. Blow it out your ass.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

I think that the state of US pool in terms of US talent is excellent. Unfortunantly, the economics of being a pro-pool player is pretty bleak.
There simply is not enough money in it to go around to keep all of our talent travelling around the world.

I have a question in regards to the European players. Do they receive stipends or monetary support from their governments?

 

[NYC cue dude]

I think that the state of US pool in terms of US talent is excellent. Unfortunantly, the economics of being a pro-pool player is pretty bleak.
There simply is not enough money in it to go around to keep all of our talent travelling around the world.

I have a question in regards to the European players. Do they receive stipends or monetary support from their governments?

No, there are no government stipends, although I think the Netherlands (Dutch) offers it's top 2 or 3 highest ranked players some financial assistancefor wpa approved world championships. I could be wrong, but I recall hudji see mentioning something to that affect at the 14.1 WC 2 years ago. It might be as little as the entry fee or travel. No other countries offer money, to my knowledge.

Asian countries may be an entirely different story. I have my suspicions that the Chinese players receive some support. I do know that if pool makes on to the Olympic stage, things might change for many different players/countries.

I also know that the "image" of pool, hustling etc, is one of the major obstacles in obtaining Olympic consideration.

Rg

 

[Bob Jewett]

... although I think the Netherlands (Dutch) offers it's top 2 or 3 highest ranked players some financial assistance ...

The story I read is that the top 4 Dutch pool players get 2000 euros/month as long as they maintain their rankings (plus tournament expenses, I think). Also, they have a special training facility where they can control the playing conditions.

In Spain, I think they have a well-supported youth program of which Dani Sanchez is product.

 

[Avathar]

I still don't get the problem...

Berry was asking basicaly how it comes, that US pool seems not to produce as many top athletes as it used to, in the old days.

He several times stated, that he regreds on this, since there is a whole lot of young players, who with the right training possibilities could really step up "for their country"...

I only play pool on a competitive basis since the last two years, before that I only played in bars, still I have seen a lot of youth training programs and have seen that there are young players being supported to raise in their abilities in many places here in Germany (of which some keep alreay teasing the big names in Europe, as do some of the youth players from Austria and other small countries around Europe).
Our way to approach the SPORT pool seems to lead to a reasonable future internationally (no matter if these guys care for gambling and have the balls for it or not).
You can see similar (on a much more extenbded level) things in Asia, where so many young guns step up behind Efren and Francisco.
In Europe you cannot really make money from playing pool and to come to the great events in the US and Asia is a great thing for most of the semi pro and amateur players here in Germany.
I think Ralf and Thorsten are basically the only real pro players we have, most of the other internationally acting players are having other means of income (Ortman i.e. owns a pool supply shop)
So pool is NOT really a big thing in Europe, but it is a nice lovely SPORT for a minority of ppl.
BTW in Germany we have 80 Mio ppl, of which are only about 40000 pool players in the sport clubs and the numbers seem not to raise... only the amount of better players seems to have grown lately (so that the amount of ppl who can really make money from it is reduced *think about it*)
The Euro Tour has most of the European "aces" in it and you always see different winners, though a few seem to end up at the top of the board regularily still like Ralf, Nils and the English guys ( like Darren, Daryl and Majid)...

The question is rather where are all the new faces from the US (I did not realise, that John Smith seems to be pretty young?). Why are the leagues of APA and BCA which are so crowded with players not pushing the great guys some more? I mean push the talents somewhere, where they do not have to face handicaps, so that they need to work on their talents to become even better some more! I would think that in many other sports like swimming and atheltics "your" country is doing this in a great fashion (you start at highschool with stipendias (hope this is close to a valid English word) for all kind of sports)
If this would happen to the world of pool, beware WORLD! Anyhow, there is no doubt about the abilities of SvB, Earl, Archer, Harriman and Smith and the likes from my side... they are great and about as able to win WC titles as Ralf, Darren & Co, however I wonder where is the future? Who will stand up to the huge amount of newcomers from Europe for the Mosconi Cup 2020 (will it still be Archer and Earl? or will there be more John Smith's and SvB's?)
The pool world NEEDS American stars, to keep the great tournaments running in the US, to keep the money in the sport... I do not believe, that Asia alone will ever be able to do that alone, and in Europe there is not enough popluarity to raise real money for the world of pool... (I think last year ONLY the Mosconi Cup was shown on German TV, else you only get Snooker)

 

[berry]

Nice to see people like Avathar in this topic! Right On.

Meanwhile Mika won the Qatar open, another win for Europe. And I saw some European youth players on the list.....

 

[Glendale]

Nice to see people like Avathar in this topic! Right On.

Meanwhile Mika won the Qatar open, another win for Europe. And I saw some European youth players on the list.....

Yay, go Europe rocks! lol.

Are you European or are you an American calling out other Americans?

Anyways, people are always going to root for their home country. Personally, I don't care either way...I can appreciate talent coming from any country. This is a silly debate though. Dennis Hatch beat Appleton in their gambling matchup...it's not going to make me wave an American flag and root "America rocks". I can go on and on...

You love Europe. Good for you

 

[Porcospino]

Why are the leagues of APA and BCA which are so crowded with players not pushing the great guys some more? I mean push the talents somewhere, where they do not have to face handicaps, so that they need to work on their talents to become even better some more!

LOL I love this comment.....

Leagues here are a 100% JOKE. They are not designed to make you better. They are designed to keep players in a swirling trap and feeding weekly and annual dues into their pockets!!!! The handicap system alone causes huge problems. Higher ranking players are punished for being good and "sand-baggers" are just another reason why the handicap system should be done away with entirely in tournaments and leagues EVERYWHERE in the US. Just make everyone play even and if people complain, OH WELL!! The people with heart will still play and there is where you will find your Champions anyway not the chicken wiped players that need the 6 out before even signing up for a tournament. LOL pathetic..... I have a feeling a lot of good players steer away from leagues rather than flock to them because of the beat handicap systems they use. Anyone who plays or has played APA 9-Ball probably drops over into a ball on the floor and laughs to death. I want to meet the group of people who came up with these rules!!! :thumbup: GOOD JOB :thumbup:

No Push-Out (Bad roll on the break? Oh well guess you are kicking)

No Jump Sticks (Huge debate on this one, jump cues are used in higher level events... So why ban them instead of incouraging people to use and be better with them)

No 3 Foul (Also used in higher level tournaments, but not in APA. I wonder, hmmmm let's not learn to be a better player)

Point System instead of 9-Ball wins (WOW!!! Let's teach people to play 9-Ball THE WORST WAY POSSIBLE):thumbup:

Break and run 1-8 and miss the 9, seriously you are rewarded for this WHY??? You get 8 points and your opponent gets 2, you still win because you have 6 more points than them that rack so who cares if you missed the 9..... APA sure did a good job on that call, but sadly people still dump money into them and people stay 3's for 10+ years and never really learn or care to get better. They don't have too!!! A team captain will take a "solid" 3 or 4 over a 7 ANY DAY, it's a joke...

If leagues would just teach people from the beginning how to play the correct way with a non-handicap system than you will see that people who want to play and desire to excel will adapt and become better. I'm frustrated just typing about this crap.

 

[memikey]

Whatever the reason might be for the apparent improved performances of Uk and mainland Europe players relative to USA players it most certainly isn't mainly because of more money in the professional game in those places.

They are in much the same boat as USA players....with a few minor exceptions virtually nobody with control of substantial sums of either public or corporate money wants to touch the game with a barge pole.

 

[muttley76]

Whatever the reason might be for the apparent improved performances of Uk and mainland Europe players relative to USA players it most certainly isn't mainly because of more money in the professional game in those places.

They are in much the same boat as USA players....with a few minor exceptions virtually nobody with control of substantial sums of either public or corporate money wants to touch the game with a barge pole.

The only real question I would have is what are the percentage of US vs. Europe players in these events? In a good bit of these, there are at least 5-10 Europeans for every American. Not an entirely accurate representation. I do not mean to detract from the Euro's, just wish a few more would move over here and play our top guys all the time, or that our best would have an equal representation, just to level this discussion. There is little doubt that the Euros have closed the gap, I am just not sold that they have nosed ahead quite yet.

 

[berry]

"The only real question" .............. funny!

We also nicked most prizes away in USA tournaments were there were 5 US players for every European. So, there goos your little doubt!


Read post of Avathar (on this page).

 

[memikey]

The only real question I would have is what are the percentage of US vs. Europe players in these events? In a good bit of these, there are at least 5-10 Europeans for every American. Not an entirely accurate representation. I do not mean to detract from the Euro's, just wish a few more would move over here and play our top guys all the time, or that our best would have an equal representation, just to level this discussion. There is little doubt that the Euros have closed the gap, I am just not sold that they have nosed ahead quite yet.

When there are more Europeans than Americans in events outside USA (not all such events) the main reason (not the only reason) is that generally speaking Europeans are more willing to travel to play in events than USA players are (obviously there are individual exceptions to any general observation like this).

Again generally speaking it is pretty obvious that Europeans are more willing to travel to USA events than USA players are willing to travel to European events. The reasons for that state of affairs cannot be laid at the door of either "better individual sponsorship" or "better national financial backing by pool organisations re their countries' players' desires to travel and compete". It has far more to do with individual players' personal motivations and the fact that that there are many more worthwhile events in USA than there are in Europe.

Probably unintentionally your post seems to suggest that you think I have expressed the opinion that European players have "moved ahead" of USA players. I didn't say or even hint any such thing. I don't know enough about it to know whether they have or haven't and it is quite possible to now have improved relative to where one stood against others some time ago without having actually passed them. What I do know and what I simply explained is that some of the reasons some posters on here may popularly think are behind European improvement relative to USA, aren't really valid reasons.

 

[berry]

"The only real question" .............. funny!

We also nicked most prizes away in USA tournaments were there were 5 US players for every European. So, there goos your little doubt!


Read post of Avathar (on this page).

ahum, like the 14.1 tournament of dragon promotions.

 

[berry]

"The only real question" .............. funny!

We also nicked most prizes away in USA tournaments were there were 5 US players for every European. So, there goos your little doubt!


Read post of Avathar (on this page).

Ahum, like the US Open...