Experience or science?

Which do you trust most?

  • Experience

    Votes: 134 72.0%
  • Science

    Votes: 52 28.0%

  • Total voters
    186
you are right

Hu:

I think you quoted and responded to JoeW's post too soon -- he's not finished editing it yet. He might yet add/change something that will tip the balance as to whether you deem a response necessary.

:p

J/K Joe!
-Sean

Sean,

I'm in a bit less agreement when he hammers the value of experience a little harder.

Question: If the entire engineering department of an aircraft manufacturer top to bottom was on an airliner they built and also a pilot with 20 years experience who didn't know a thing more than any typical pilot knows, who would they pick to fly the airplane? Who would you want flying it?

Microsoft was trying to improve efficiency so they cut a deal with Uncle Sam to send one of their top engineers to army boot camp. Things worked fair to middling until it came time to go to the shooting range. Try as he might, the engineer couldn't hit the target. Finally he put the end of his finger over the muzzle of his rifle and fired, blowing the end of his finger off. He shouted to the score keepers in the pit, "Everything is working perfectly on my end, must be an error on your end!"

Hu
 
More to the point; people are confusing science and technology. A common error. :)



Were the scientists and the people who think they have hard scientific proof of things a bit more forthright...

They are, in general, absolutely forthright. It is the non-scientists interpreting and disseminating scientific information that are in error and to blame IMHO.

Personally, I have little in the way of opinion regarding "aiming systems". If one likes it, use it, if not, then don't. The in depth convoluted discussion of them seems to me to be cerebral horsepower misapplied and amounts to little more than mental masturbation.

Play pool and enjoy it I say. :)
 
You have to see a player with 40+ years of experience under his belt to know what it is like to feel that you have absolutely no chance. Even after a decades worth of playing a lot of pool, I still feel helpless. There is no reason to believe that if you dedicated your life to reading for two years straight that you will know what it takes to be really good.
 
(...)whatever state science is in at the moment is just a constant state of refinement of the known data hopefully approaching ever closer to the truth.
Yes, that is well-stated. I'd quibble with you about the "just". It works much better than any other tool we have used in trying to improve our understanding of ourselves and our environment.

Unfortunately scientific data is often presented to the general public and taught in schools as the absolute truth.

It's surprising (to me, anyway) the scope of this situation. Newton's law of gravity, for example, and other "classical physics" laws are still taught in high school as if they were "right" - as if they were fundamental principles. No mention is made that we currently have a better understanding based on general relativity, and that Newton's law gives only an approximation (although it is an excellent approximation in most circumstances).

The subject of felt friction was mentioned earlier in this thread, I believe, and is another example. The first laws of friction were developed by empirical work, yet people teach today, for example, that there exists a single coefficient of friction that can be applied in general, as if it was a fundamental physical property of a substance. Friction is a very complicated subject, and a single CoF is not always even a good enough approximation for the case of sliding friction between two dry, solid, rigid, objects, for which it was originally developed. To try to apply a single CoF to a tire made of complex materials and complex, flexing construction against a road surface is to ignore the complexity of reality. A billiard ball sliding on a felt table may be closer to "ideal" behavior, I don't know - but I do know that if a CoF works for that, it will be because it is a good-enough engineering approximation, not that it accurately captures what is going on at a fundamental level.

My personal opinion is that we would all be better off if the uncertainties were made clear, giving science and its practitioners yet another distinguishing characteristic from the many other human agencies that lay claim to a body of lore proclaimed as "truth". I mean, there is no reason to single out science as being flawed in this regard.

BTW, some things are called "science" that aren't. My formal training is in computer science / software engineering, as the universities call it. It is neither a science nor is it engineering. Writing computer software is closer to a trade or a craft.
 
That is a good question that can only be answered by putting it to the test if your friend was willing. It might be that he wouldn't slump, or it might be that his free and easy shooting would go away and he would play worse all the time. Very possible that he would lose his enjoyment of the game too. There are risks to this test.

.....

For some reason I don't particularly blame your friend for not being open to change! :grin:

Hu

He is open to change but gets lost in the details of sighting rather than feeling....this is why he uses a punch stroke for it is easier than developing a longer one that can deviate on it's way to the CB.:wink:
 
Pool is simply still in its dark ages when it comes to knowledge in all parts of the game. We look for secrets to rediscover. What about getting off our duffs and killing something instead of waiting for it to die, like a buzzard?

We need the science to greatly be expanded in our sport. If it ever does, I will change my position and know experience comes after understanding the science. The experience guys are not knocking the science guys. We want to know the science. How about more open minded discussions that include psychological perception instead of geometrically analyzing everything for instance?

Were not adding any new information although I'm impressed with the collective works of several posters in this forum...for the most part. :wink: Anyways, is it possible there is some new information out there? If there is, maybe it's not mystical or magical. Maybe it's even old news we haven't heard yet. Why not look into it?

Best,
Mike
 
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This is a particularly bad example of the superiority of experience over science. It hardly takes science to understand--and understand pretty much immediately--why CTE/Pro1 doesn't work as an aiming system. Just a little logic will do.

(Note that this in reference to the generally trumpeted claim that it is sufficient unto itself, i.e., the crucial "feel" adjustments, where the real aiming is done, are excluded from the "system.")

Jim

I know that you can create a spread sheet for CTE to tabulate for a given bridge length behind the CB and distance between the CB and OB for a given cut angle - how much one needs to offset the tip/ferrule from the center of the CB - pre pivot back to center. Would that spread sheet be science if it works at the table?:thumbup:
 
Hu:

I think you quoted and responded to JoeW's post too soon -- he's not finished editing it yet. He might yet add/change something that will tip the balance as to whether you deem a response necessary.

:p

J/K Joe!
-Sean

Damn, got me again. In my life nothing is ever finished. :o
 
Newton's law of gravity, for example, and other "classical physics" laws are still taught in high school as if they were "right" - as if they were fundamental principles.

Actually, it sounds more to me like you merely misunderstood what you were taught...or perhaps it wasn't taught well. :wink:
 
Pool is simply still in its dark ages when it comes to knowledge in all parts of the game. We look for secrets to rediscover. What about getting off our duffs and killing something instead of waiting for it to die, like a buzzard?

We need the science to greatly be expanded in our sport. If it ever does, I will change my position and know experience comes after understanding the science. The experience guys are not knocking the science guys. We want to know the science. How about more open minded discussions that include psychological perception instead of geometrically analyzing everything for instance?

Were not adding any new information although I'm impressed with the collected works of several posters in this forum...for the most part. :wink: Anyways, is it possible there is some new information out there? If there is, maybe it's not mystical or magical. Maybe it's even old news we haven't heard yet. Why not look into it?

Best,
Mike
When you involve the performance of an individual player, it becomes much, much harder for pure science to be applied. We could think of the areas, though, where sound thinking might be of benefit, if we look at what is done in other sports:
- What physical training/workout regimen should be done to improve pool play, and why?
- What psychological issues are the dominant ones in slowing improvement, and how should they be treated?
- What methods of play are most effective to implement, and why? (For example, look at pro golfers' "pre-shot" routines and course management skills.)
- What tools can we use to develop visualization at the table - to learn to better "see" the best runs, or best safeties, etc.

Another area science can be useful is not in adding new stuff, but in debunking old stuff that turn out to be myths of little value and no grounding in reality.

I can try a few observations on equipment that I think are grounded in reality, but they may be controversial anyway...

- The best butt for you is one you are familiar with and like to play with. "Technological" improvements in cue design exist, but they are all related to the shaft and tip, not the butt. There may be changes in the butt (e.g. grips) that improve some individuals' play because of comfort, or better fit, etc. but there are no fundamental improvements that apply to many players. There's no reason the wooden handle from a plumber's helper is not perfectly satisfactory as a butt, including a "break butt". Yes, the measured vibrations will vary depending on construction, but they have no effect on anything approaching proper play (well-hit shots).

- Laminated shafts are useful only in helping a shaft stay straight longer under more conditions. They make no other significant improvement in the playing performance of the shaft over a traditional one-piece turned shaft.
Any other purported benefits, like consistency in any orientation, are so insignificant as to be irrelevant.

- "Low deflection" shafts do reduce cue ball squirt. This has been written up by folks here, so I won't repeat. Note you can get low deflection by drilling a hole down from the ferrule in any shaft you like. It's the reduced weight that makes the bulk of the difference. Also note they could work much better, since they reduce deflection by some percentage (0-30%?) but by no means eliminate it or even remove the bulk of it.

- Cue weight, inside the normal range of 17-24 oz, is irrelevant from the view of physics and kinesiology, so just pick what you like and stick with it. Changing the cue weight in the course of play may not be advised, I'm not sure.
Reasoning: the muscles used are large enough to not care about any 1 oz difference in weight, and the impact of the ball isn't sensitive to a small change in cue weight. But you can certainly feel a change in weight, and it may take a good number of strokes to adjust your timing to the new weight, so it seems likely that changing playing cue weight by an ounce or more during play is an iffy proposition.

- How clean the balls makes a noticeable difference in play, especially cut shots. For consistency's sake, we should clean the balls before a night's play. Once cleaned, they are fine for that night.

One thing I'd like to see that I am not aware of is whether brushing the table before play yields a significant improvement in consistency, when no visible bumps or deviations in ball travel are seen. I suspect that some video footage would show that balls can be thrown off by enough angular difference by microscopic wobbles / path changes that brushing is worthwhile for long shots, but I cannot prove it. (I'm thinking mainly of pool hall tables - I hope people with tables at home don't let them get that dirty!)
 
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If you told me a few years ago I don't have power, I would flipout. But it is only now that I know the difference. So if I've played 1o+ years without power...how is it possible to expand on this topic with others without having gotten to this point? Further, if power is such a special thing to have, how do we conclude that it is easy to acquire? Let's come to the conclusion if this were true (it is I've only bullshited az once),.......I lost my train of thoughts again! Gaddamit! I'm going to have to let this soak first.
 
If you told me a few years ago I don't have power, I would flipout. But it is only now that I know the difference. So if I've played 1o+ years without power...how is it possible to expand on this topic with others without having gotten to this point? Further, if power is such a special thing to have, how do we conclude that it is easy to acquire? Let's come to the conclusion if this were true (it is I've only bullshited az once),.......I lost my train of thoughts again! Gaddamit! I'm going to have to let this soak first.

Huh? Do you mean "The Power"?:confused:
 
Pool is simply still in its dark ages when it comes to knowledge in all parts of the game. We look for secrets to rediscover. What about getting off our duffs and killing something instead of waiting for it to die, like a buzzard?

We need the science to greatly be expanded in our sport. If it ever does, I will change my position and know experience comes after understanding the science. The experience guys are not knocking the science guys. We want to know the science. How about more open minded discussions that include psychological perception instead of geometrically analyzing everything for instance?

Were not adding any new information although I'm impressed with the collected works of several posters in this forum...for the most part. :wink: Anyways, is it possible there is some new information out there? If there is, maybe it's not mystical or magical. Maybe it's even old news we haven't heard yet. Why not look into it?

Best,
Mike

Have you heard this one?:wink:

Fascinated by swiping at whitie, I swiped the CB down with my tip toward the cloth to get draw. I swear that I got more draw than if I just stroked my cue straight through the CB. Perhaps the weight of the CB was a factor to keep it in contact with the tip a bit longer? Swiping at the CB with english about it's equator would be more prone to move to the side upon impact due to the weight of the CB resting on the cloth - the CB would/could slide to the side upon impact with left/right english.

Just saying.:thumbup:
 
Huh? Do you mean "The Power"?:confused:

I really don't know. Just thought about it today. I had a good point..- really did. Basically, if you were to explain a shot that requires power...I wouldn't have understood it. Few years from now I will have expanded on it. But before today, I would have been lost. I would just piss off anyone knowledgeable striking a convo with them.

Guess I can only thank the all powerful for getting me this far...its more like a curse. I want to quit. - really do.
 
This is a particularly bad example of the superiority of experience over science. It hardly takes science to understand--and understand pretty much immediately--why CTE/Pro1 doesn't work as an aiming system. Just a little logic will do.

(Note that this in reference to the generally trumpeted claim that it is sufficient unto itself, i.e., the crucial "feel" adjustments, where the real aiming is done, are excluded from the "system.")

Jim

So what exactly is your logic as to why CTE doesn't work as an aiming system?
Do you have sufficient experience with CTE to know it doesn't work?
What exactly are these feel adjustments you talk about?
 
Have you heard this one?:wink:

Fascinated by swiping at whitie, I swiped the CB down with my tip toward the cloth to get draw. I swear that I got more draw than if I just stroked my cue straight through the CB. Perhaps the weight of the CB was a factor to keep it in contact with the tip a bit longer? Swiping at the CB with english about it's equator would be more prone to move to the side upon impact due to the weight of the CB resting on the cloth - the CB would/could slide to the side upon impact with left/right english.

Just saying.:thumbup:

Don't tease me now! I thought that other thread died from malnutrition. :grin: Big E, I think you're talking about a magically occuring phenomenom that can neither be proven/disproven. After all, there are rules that govern contact with the cue ball.

What if you were right? Or more important than that is what's worse than a dead muskrat on your piano? :wink:

Best,
Mike
 
Don't tease me now! I thought that other thread died from malnutrition. :grin: Big E, I think you're talking about a magically occuring phenomenom that can neither be proven/disproven. After all, there are rules that govern contact with the cue ball.

What if you were right? Or more important than that is what's worse than a dead muskrat on your piano? :wink:

Best,
Mike

Mike,
Everything has a tolerance even a silly millisecond of contact could be 1.10 or 0.9 0millisecond with results that could defy the dogma and results with different amounts of spin. There may be a difference between a soft Elkmaster tip to a harder LePro in teerms of the duration of the contact. due to the tip conforming to a bit longer due to compression of the tip or not to the surface of the CB.

While at the table at the same time as swiping down on the CB to effect more draw, I shot the CB resting on the spot to the center diamond down table with right english until I miscued with a straight through stroke and hit the right rail one spot above the right center pocket. When I swiped the CB with right english, the CB would hit the rail closer to the head rail - resulting in more spin.

Could it be that the swipe was riding the circumference of the CB a bit longer than the academic constant of 1 millisecond?

Is there an ultra high speed camera vid to prove that didn't/couldn't happen?
Just saying.:thumbup:

We don't have Muscrats in LA for they must have died awhile ago.
Be well.:)
 
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If you hold the CB in your hand with the thumb, index finger and middle finger with the thumb at the contact point for say right english and thrust it forward down table you get some spin.

On the otherhand (same hand), if you twist your fingers and launch the CB down table, you wil effect more spin, but you knew that.:wink::thumbup:

Lateral swiping at the CB may achieve the same result.:thumbup:
 
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