Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

Another snooker player that has not done too bad, looking at the white.

Today I found this video, John Higgins v Luca Brecel SF 2015 Welsh Open. This is the first time I have watched Higgins play. The first thing I noticed was his eyebrows raising and lowering as he sighted each shot. Wondered if it was just his brow or if his eyes followed the same pattern. Then this shot came up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=918
Pretty much the same pattern I noticed in his previous shots and very obvious his eyes come up after contact with the cue ball.

Here is another in the same match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=1291
 
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It never gets old watching him shoot. I wanted to see the shot you posted and got stuck watching the match lol.
 
gregcantrall said:
Today I found this video, John Higgins v Luca Brecel SF 2015 Welsh Open. This is the first time I have watched Higgins play. The first thing I noticed was his eyebrows raising and lowering as he sighted each shot. Wondered if it was just his brow or if his eyes followed the same pattern. Then this shot came up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=918
Pretty much the same pattern I noticed in his previous shots and very obvious his eyes come up after contact with the cue ball.

Here is another in the same match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=1291
Click to expand...
I watched it in full screen and tend to agree with you, but I can't be 100% sure as the upward movement looks toward the pocket to see where the OB goes I believe.
 
icucybe said:
After making sure I am align correctly,

* I focus CB contact point and the line the CB will tavel to the OB taking me to the fraction of the OB I want to hit.

* As I pull my cue back my eyes are moving on the line the cue ball will travel and I am getting a feel how streight my cue is while pulling back.

* I make a pause on the back while focusing on OB contact point.

* Then my eyes come back down the line CB will tavel to the cointact point on the CB.

* Then my focuse is back on CB contact point and I pause close to it so my brain can register where I want it.
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If you can explain that part I highlighted in RED, then you'd be rich!

I used to think pretty much the same way for years, and I'm sure most players do. So long as they are pretty careful when aligning, they assume they are aligned, i.e. their bridge V is in the correct spot.

I now know that when the bridge V is aligned, it is pretty darn hard to stroke badly enough to miss a ball unless you're trying to.

One of the advantages of focusing on the CB during the stroke is that it encourages us to trust our alignment, whereas looking at the OB encourages aligning adjustments during the stroke, such as bridge shifting and swiping.

Watch some mediocre enthusiasts' bridge and stroke closely while they are staring at that OB, and you'll see bridge hand movement and swiping on nearly every shot, because they need to do that to correct their poor alignment.
 
Can the Mods please move this thread to
the Aiming Sub-Forum where it belongs
and off the Main Forum! Thanks
 
Colin Colenso said:
If you can explain that part I highlighted in RED, then you'd be rich!

I used to think pretty much the same way for years, and I'm sure most players do. So long as they are pretty careful when aligning, they assume they are aligned, i.e. their bridge V is in the correct spot.

I now know that when the bridge V is aligned, it is pretty darn hard to stroke badly enough to miss a ball unless you're trying to.

One of the advantages of focusing on the CB during the stroke is that it encourages us to trust our alignment, whereas looking at the OB encourages aligning adjustments during the stroke, such as bridge shifting and swiping.

Watch some mediocre enthusiasts' bridge and stroke closely while they are staring at that OB, and you'll see bridge hand movement and swiping on nearly every shot, because they need to do that to correct their poor alignment.
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Makes a lot of sense! I agree with that.
 
gregcantrall said:
In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppie considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.

The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.

The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.

The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.

Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.

Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!

Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.

So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.:thumbup:

Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.:cool:
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
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Nice Post Greg,
Sometimes trying just about anything will make for some good changes at least temporarily but it sounds as if you might be onto something.

In my professional line of work I have to qualify each year with a handgun. I used to bow as well and learned to do so with both eyes open. I would find myself focused on the tip of the arrow at times and the background would look fuzzy but the shot found it proximity near the center of the target as I learned to adjust.

The whole thing of aiming is to have references that you use and go through each time so if what you read in the book was the advice of a professional then there might be something to it if it works for you.

As I have studied aiming from a natural standpoint I find myself confronted with a lot of things and what I am most intrigued by is the ability of people to ignore the painfully obvious.

You may have very well uncovered or rediscovered a great truth that will work for you. I know you have me wanting to try it myself. I will report back and read this thread.
 
ChrisBanks said:
If this turns out to be true, that looking at the cueball is more advisable than looking at the object ball, this could turn the pool universe upsidedown.

It would prove all the instructors wrong. All the instructors on this site would lose their credibility.

It would prove every professional player wrong. It would prove every snooker player wrong. Every player in every cue sport. It would be a new beginning in pool.

So you will understand why at the present I am unsure if it is a joke or not. I am not saying it is out of the realm of possibility.
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I understood perfectly what you were saying Chris. One thing I have found out for sure is that there are things that people have seemed to ignore or refused to see that make playing this game so much easier. We have the professionals and we look to them for guidance so let me put this much out there.

Ask a person how to aim and what do you get? There is no telling honestly.

"You just hit the thing with the thing and you put the thing where its supposed to go and there just isn't anything cleared than that."

His description of how the straight in off the rails is very telling. I have to try to miss those its my best shot and I think that is largely because my contact point is in the center of the object ball or close to it and so is my cue and alignment is perfectly to it.

So I'm prepared to learn something, When people fight over aiming methods the way they do, and something like this comes up that is set to debunk some of the misinformation that we have, we should all be ready to take a serious look at it and I certainly will. There is information out there now about ideal bridge length and proper alignment that supports what he is saying.
 
Exactly

CreeDo said:
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition.
You can look at the cue ball last for some specific shots, and the object ball last for others.

Certain shots are more sensitive to an incorrect tip placement (such as when jacked up over another ball). For me, it does wonders on long straight shots.

I had a buddy who was complaining last night about how he kept steering his stroke, and kept hitting long straight shots into the rails. I suggested staring at the cue ball the whole time and he drilled the next one. It may not mean anything but I think keeping an open mind is a good policy.
Click to expand...

Ditto on that!
 
Colin Colenso said:
I watched it in full screen and tend to agree with you, but I can't be 100% sure as the upward movement looks toward the pocket to see where the OB goes I believe.
Click to expand...
That matches my opinion also. I would make a small wager on it but not the house. I reviewed it many times before posting because I wanted to be sure I was not just seeing what I was looking for. The pattern of his brow lifting and lowering as he sights back and forth seemed to indicate his eyes at their lowest point as he begins the stroke. Then his eyes seem to lift even before the contact with the black. It would be interesting to interview Mr. Higgins on the topic.


336Robin said:
You may have very well uncovered or rediscovered a great truth that will work for you. I know you have me wanting to try it myself. I will report back and read this thread.
Click to expand...
You will notice in the original post I stated,"I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013." It is working fine for me over 2 years later. Now, on occasion I will look at the object ball last but very rarely.
 
gregcantrall said:
Today I found this video, John Higgins v Luca Brecel SF 2015 Welsh Open. This is the first time I have watched Higgins play. The first thing I noticed was his eyebrows raising and lowering as he sighted each shot. Wondered if it was just his brow or if his eyes followed the same pattern. Then this shot came up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=918
Pretty much the same pattern I noticed in his previous shots and very obvious his eyes come up after contact with the cue ball.

Here is another in the same match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=1291
Click to expand...


John is looking at the object ball last (you see his eyes shifting from the cb to the ob before he strikes it), his eyes coming up after contact is him following the object ball into the pocket. About 90% of the snooker players look at the ob last.
 
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Nice Point

Taco said:
Rodney Morris also looks at CB last. He explicitly says so on the Break & Run DVD set. It gives him better CB control. He says Efren and Parica do the same. But what do they know compared to a keyboard banger?
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Nice Point!
 
Yet another John Higgins shot

Kev said:
John is looking at the object ball last (you see his eyes shifting from the cb to the ob before he strikes it), his eyes coming up after contact is him following the object ball into the pocket. About 90% of the snooker players look at the ob last.
Click to expand...

Possibly. Here is another shot from the same match. This is a longer shot with the red very close to the pocket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=5991

Looks to me like his eyes come up as he strikes the white.

I am amazed at the number of camera angles that show the players eyes at the moment of contact, in this match.
 
RobertaAgnor said:
It actually helps my accuracy, I look at all that but stop at the last CB. I respect your opinion but since you don't know me or how I shoot you can't really say how it effects me since everyone is different. It's how I've shot my entire life & it's always worked for me & that's what really matters.
Click to expand...

You are right, unless a person really wants to change their personal game, anything anyone says really doesnt matter. All that matters is if you are happy.
 
Greatest Benefit

naji said:
89% of shots missed because the tip contacts CB at different spot than intended. Therefore, the only big beneficial results by looking at CB last is it made you aware of this fact and you are conscious about where tip goes.
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I agree I think this is a huge benefit of looking at it last or at least before the last stroke before you focus entirely at the object ball which is what I do. I look down the edge of the side I am cutting the ball and not as much down the center stick aim line. Once I get my English and aim dialed in I go on autopilot looking at my delivery point. I probably never seen the tip hit the ball but today I m going to try to so I can see if there is any appreciable improvement in position work. I make shots just fine.
 
I´m more interested in the CB today than I was before, well that sounded a bit strange but I hope you get me :p.

Anyway, one of my checkings of my aim is to go down just looking at the OB and I can also add "no warm up strokes", I have actually run racks doing just that, it´s amazing how accurate we are if we trust the PSR.

This thread got me a idea, tomorrow (poodle:thumbup:) I will aim it up and then go down just looking at the CB and see how it turns out, probably the same result or maybe even a bit better, will try pivoting etc to spin the ball more with BHE.

Regards

Christian

Hmm the spell queen in my computer change the (poolday) to poodle.... :-).
 
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Chrippa said:
I´m more interested in the CB today than I was before, well that sounded a bit strange but I hope you get me :p.

Anyway, one of my checkings of my aim is to go down just looking at the OB and I can also add "no warm up strokes", I have actually run racks doing just that, it´s amazing how accurate we are if we trust the PSR.

This thread got me a idea, tomorrow (poodle:thumbup:) I will aim it up and then go down just looking at the CB and see how it turns out, probably the same result or maybe even a bit better, will try pivoting etc to spin the ball more with BHE.

Regards

Christian

Hmm the spell queen in my computer change the (poolday) to poodle.... :-).
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Hi Christian,

I used to go down 'looking' at neither one but ended up once down with my look on the cue ball. I then had to refine my 'aim'. I've played rather well for more than 4.5 decades that way. But my game started falling off a bit after I ruptured a disc in my back & my eye issues worsened a bit.

Then Gene Albrecht (Perfect Aim) convinced me that for pool I am cross eye dominant. Looking at the OB as I go down has cleared up some of the recent issues that had crept into my game. I look OB last except for some of the more unusual shots. Like very near a rail, over a ball, or slow rolling the ball, etc.

Also, using TOI led me to not using pre shot strokes & I like it. It sort of puts focus on the CB & the lines but I still like looking OB last as it helps seeing what part of the pocket the OB enters & that can be beneficial if one uses it.

You seem to be an explorer. That's good. Many god things can be found when one explores. Then there are some things can swallow you up too.

Take Care,
Rick
 
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