Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

ENGLISH! said:
Hi Christian,

I used to go down 'looking' at neither one but ended up once down with my look on the cue ball. I then had to refine my 'aim'. I've played rather well for more than 4.5 decades that way. But my game started falling off a bit after I ruptured a disc in my back & my eye issues worsened a bit.

Then Gene Albrecht (Perfect Aim) convinced me that for pool I am cross eye dominant. Looking at the OB as I go down has cleared up some of the recent issues that had crept into my game. I look OB last except for some of the more unusual shots. Like very near a rail, over a ball, or slow rolling the ball, etc.

Also, using TOI led me to not using pre shot strokes & I like it. It sort of puts focus on the CB & the lines but I still like looking OB last as it helps seeing what part of the pocket the OB enters & that can be beneficial if one uses it.

You seem to be an explorer. That's good. Many god things can be found when one explores. Then there are some things can swallow you up too.

Take Care,
Rick
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Hi Rick,

I have also studied Gene´s approach and I like it:).
For me it´s like this, you can always learn new things and you will always remember the old ones. new learning does just add not detract, in "play" however it can disturb because of so many new things to "remember/think of" but that for me at least is of very little concern since I play to learn and "winning over myself" not the opponent. I can if I "want" put up the "A" game, the competitive game (CJ I say is the Master of it) but I seldom endure so long, I find myself trying to look for something "new"/funny to do:-).
The game is perfect and very brilliant imo. Lots of fun:-).

Take care my friend

Christian
 
Chrippa said:
Hi Rick,

I have also studied Gene´s approach and I like it:).
For me it´s like this, you can always learn new things and you will always remember the old ones. new learning does just add not detract, in "play" however it can disturb because of so many new things to "remember/think of" but that for me at least is of very little concern since I play to learn and "winning over myself" not the opponent. I can if I "want" put up the "A" game, the competitive game (CJ I say is the Master of it) but I seldom endure so long, I find myself trying to look for something "new"/funny to do:-).
The game is perfect and very brilliant imo. Lots of fun:-).

Take care my friend

Christian
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Christian,

There is much in that statement of yours that I highlighted. You may said it in Swenglish, but I very much am the same way though I might say it a bit differently.

It's sort of like I said about two years ago, If I had to play with just hitting on the vertical axis I would probably quit. And... I Love the Game.

It's also sort of like golf, one can find a way to get around a golf course with a certain swing but is that how the golf club really should be swung? (And is that really how the game should be played?)

I don't play much golf anymore but even when I did, I'd have to ask myself, 'Which swing am I going to use today?'.

If it's not fun it's work & I don't like working without getting paid. There can be much in that statement.

All the Best 2 You & Yours & Everyone,
Rick

PS Does a true artist paint for the money or because he wants to express himself through his painting & what about true musicians & singer/song writers? Passion... Love of & for The Game... Amateurs!
 
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Lately, I've been finding looking at the CB or OB while down on the shot to be negligible. Really, I think aligning yourself properly on the shot line is most important and for that I use the center on the CB to the contact point on the OB. Just so you know I'm not stroking through the CB in line with the contact point on the OB, I'm aligning CB to ghost ball (but I visualize the ghost ball at the contact point).

While down on the shot I can close my eyes and make balls pretty consistently because my stroke is straight. The only benefit I get from looking at the CB is hitting it where I want ( high right, low right, etc).


Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2
 
ENGLISH! said:
Christian,

There is much in that statement of yours that I highlighted. You may said it in Swenglish, but I very much am the same way though I might say it a bit differently.

It's sort of like I said about two years ago, If I had to play with just hitting on the vertical axis I would probably quit. And... I Love the Game.

It's also sort of like golf, one can find a way to get around a golf course with a certain swing but is that how the golf club really should be swung? (And is that really how the game should be played?)

I don't play much golf anymore but even when I did, I'd have to ask myself, 'Which swing am I going to use today?'.

If it's not fun it's work & I don't like working without getting paid. There can be much in that statement.

All the Best 2 You & Yours & Everyone,
Rick

PS Does a true artist paint for the money or because he wants to express himself through his painting & what about true musicians & singer/song writers? Passions...Love of & for The Game...Amateurs!
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I agree Rick, have fun is the most pulling factor for me - "sort of speak".

thanks

Chrippa
 
I do both at the same time

I went to town this afternoon to mail some packages, have lunch and hit a ball before I went home. So I decided to pay close attention to what I did so I could come back and report. I sort of look at both things at the same time during the PSR and while I am dialing in the adjustments for English. I can sort of see what I'm doing with the cue while all of this is going on. I am looking down the edge of the ball at how thick or thin Im going to hit the object ball. I know how thick to hit the ball when I get down into position the rest is adjusting the edge of the cue ball plus or minus for the allowance due to distance, once Im there Im stroking at the place that I decided before and sending the cue to the cue ball. I have no doubts on where Im hitting it but at that moment Im more on the object ball and I dont think I can manage to change what I do but I do think I manage to do a great deal of consideration of both ends of the equation but my last look is at the delivery location on the object ball.
 
AtLarge said:
Who are the exceptions? Any of the big names?
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Ronnie O'Sullivan admits to it, when asked about a particular shot:

Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."

John Higgins appears to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=5991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=5433
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=1291
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=918
 
Earl Stickland's eyes on break shot.

There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
https://youtu.be/w1KGY3Xt6pw?t=9220
 
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gregcantrall said:
There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
https://youtu.be/w1KGY3Xt6pw?t=9220
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Many players, myself included, will look at the cb last on the break shot when they normally look at the ob last on regular shots.
 
gregcantrall said:
Cue ball last is no longer an experiment. It is now my normal. I have proven to myself that cue ball last is the answer for me. I still experience improved accuracy, better cue ball control and consistency, with no down side.:cool:
I will not be trying any more experiments in the forseeable future.
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Greg, just something for you to think about- I believe the real reason for your improvement is that you are now hitting the cb more accurately. Most do not hit the cb where they think they are, and get varying results because of it. By you looking at the cb last, you are ensuring that you actually hit the cb where you intend to.

I feel that that the ultimate goal is to hit the cb accurately, while looking at the ob last. Few ever attain that accuracy. And that is mainly because they don't train for it, and they don't train for it because they don't even realize it is a problem.
 
No truer words said

Neil said:
Greg, just something for you to think about- I believe the real reason for your improvement is that you are now hitting the cb more accurately. Most do not hit the cb where they think they are, and get varying results because of it. By you looking at the cb last, you are ensuring that you actually hit the cb where you intend to.

I feel that that the ultimate goal is to hit the cb accurately, while looking at the ob last. Few ever attain that accuracy. And that is mainly because they don't train for it, and they don't train for it because they don't even realize it is a problem.
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Absolutely Neil, greenies for you! Very well said.
 
gregcantrall said:
I see Paul Potier added this on his site some time ago. Some very interesting insight from a knowledgeable instructor.
http://paulpotier.com/cue-ball-last-or-object-ball-last/
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Nice write up by Paul.

As a player and coach, his priority is to establish what works, and pretty clearly this method works very well for him and other great players.

But it still begs the question why?

A couple of possible explanations that come to mind are:

1. Slight errors in bridge positioning for alignment can be adjusted during the stroke via slight bridge shifting and/or swiping.

2. The initial alignment is fine, but some players can execute the stroke more directly when focusing on the OB contact point connection that on the connection point between the Cue Tip and Cue Ball.

Colin
 
Neil said:
He said the same thing many others on here have said- cb last for specialty shots, ob last for standard shots.
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This is his summary. " I would say that I look at the contact point on the object ball last approx. 85% of all shots that I play."

How he got there is by having an open mind and experimenting for himself. I would quote further but I think it would be better for anyone with an open mind and interested to go to his site and read the entire article. There is lots more good articles there as well.

He also finsishes up this article with this; "Searching for excellence often means that you have to make some changes in order to improve. Don’t allow stubbornness, laziness, and denial control how you approach new ideas. Experiment and explore your way to the new you!!
Enjoy the Process!
Paul Potier".

Neil said:
Greg, just something for you to think about- I believe the real reason for your improvement is that you are now hitting the cb more accurately. Most do not hit the cb where they think they are, and get varying results because of it. By you looking at the cb last, you are ensuring that you actually hit the cb where you intend to.

I feel that that the ultimate goal is to hit the cb accurately, while looking at the ob last. Few ever attain that accuracy. And that is mainly because they don't train for it, and they don't train for it because they don't even realize it is a problem.
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I agree, hitting the cue ball more accurately is what is going on for me. I do not feel a need to look at the object while doing that.

I am not trying to promote cue ball last over object ball last. I am trying to document the results of my experiment and further research on the topic. I started this based on a posted statement that cue ball last was fundamentally wrong. I have proven that inaccurate both through my experiments and documented proof of top players (even snooker players) that look at the cue ball last. Anyone following the link to Paul Potier's article will see that he evolved to using cue ball last 15% of the time. This evolution was a result of experimenting. This exploration was prompted by; "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
 
gregcantrall said:
This is his summary. " I would say that I look at the contact point on the object ball last approx. 85% of all shots that I play."

How he got there is by having an open mind and experimenting for himself. I would quote further but I think it would be better for anyone with an open mind and interested to go to his site and read the entire article. There is lots more good articles there as well.

He also finsishes up this article with this; "Searching for excellence often means that you have to make some changes in order to improve. Don’t allow stubbornness, laziness, and denial control how you approach new ideas. Experiment and explore your way to the new you!!
Enjoy the Process!
Paul Potier".

I agree, hitting the cue ball more accurately is what is going on for me. I do not feel a need to look at the object while doing that.

I am not trying to promote cue ball last over object ball last. I am trying to document the results of my experiment and further research on the topic. I started this based on a posted statement that cue ball last was fundamentally wrong. I have proven that inaccurate both through my experiments and documented proof of top players (even snooker players) that look at the cue ball last. Anyone following the link to Paul Potier's article will see that he evolved to using cue ball last 15% of the time. This evolution was a result of experimenting. This exploration was prompted by; "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
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Greg, Paul and I said basically the same thing. In his article he stated which shots he looks at the cb last, and that was the "specialty" shots. As far as I have seen, all instructors teach the same thing. And, I agree that whoever said that one should never look at the cb last is the one that is flat out wrong.

There is a bank shot (the fifth one) in the Billiard University Masters test. It is an extreme backcut on a barbox. Tough but doable on a 9', very, very tough on a 7'. I have found that to make it with some reliability, I have to look at the cb last when I shoot it.

What that tells me, is that while my cb hit accuracy training has greatly improved, it is not yet totally accurate. Somewhere in my stroke is a very slight hitch causing a slight steering problem. (pretty sure I have it figured out how and why, now comes the work or training part on it) Looking at the ob last, I come very close to making the bank reliably, but it keeps hitting the point of the pocket. Looking at the cb last, I can make it 4 out of 5 tries. So, rather than just look at the cb last, I know that I have to refine my stroke a little more to get that little hitch out of it.

I can't speak for you, but I know that with me, if I look at just the cb last, my accuracy will go slightly up, but my speed control will suffer. I, and probably most, need to see that final picture of the whole shot for the subconscious to work at it's optimum. So, for most shots (that 85% or so), I want to focus on the whole shot. For that other 15%, where extreme accuracy is required, I will focus on the cb the most
 
Neil said:
...if I look at just the cb last, my accuracy will go slightly up, but my speed control will suffer.
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This should be right up there with the "possible explanations" I mentioned above.

Visualizing the CB path from contact seems to be a considerable advantage during stroke execution on some shots.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Here is an example of Nick Varner swiping to make a 9-ball. It's this tendency that makes looking at the OB last a necessity for many players.
https://youtu.be/ajE9FvI0xuA?t=7m14s
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Your clip made me think of all the times I have noticed top players violating what I consider fundamentals. I was thinking of Mike Sigel and how I remembered some of his shots against Efren in the 8-Ball IPT King of the Hill 2005 youtube video. I found it but the first funny stroke was by Efren here in the first rack. Mike followed it with one of his own his second shot after that miss by Efren.

To me it shows that even the top pro players can get nervous and feel pressure. Even more reason to hammer the fundamentals in practice. That means my pre shot routine should put me in such a rock solid well aimed stance that if I pass out from the pressure, falling forward, I will still make the shot.:wink: Seriously, what ball a player looks at last is only one part of the whole PSR.
 
gregcantrall said:
Your clip made me think of all the times I have noticed top players violating what I consider fundamentals. I was thinking of Mike Sigel and how I remembered some of his shots against Efren in the 8-Ball IPT King of the Hill 2005 youtube video. I found it but the first funny stroke was by Efren here in the first rack. Mike followed it with one of his own his second shot after that miss by Efren.

To me it shows that even the top pro players can get nervous and feel pressure. Even more reason to hammer the fundamentals in practice. That means my pre shot routine should put me in such a rock solid well aimed stance that if I pass out from the pressure, falling forward, I will still make the shot.:wink: Seriously, what ball a player looks at last is only one part of the whole PSR.
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Looking at the CB only during the stroke is of course a great test of the accuracy of one's PSR. It trains a player to stare hard during the PSR to find the required bridge position for the line of shot.

Looking last at the OB can actually tempt a player to distrust their PSR alignment and 2nd guess it with a swipe or bridge shift.
 
So I tried this... and played SO much better. It wasn't even close.

There wasn't a big difference on straight-in shots or very thin cuts. But for whatever reason I make a different (and worse) stroke on 20 to 70 degree cut shots when I'm looking at the object ball rather than the cue ball.

Thanks for the great idea. I don't know if it will last forever - fixing my stroke seems like the best long-term plan - but for now I am pocketing more balls, more easily.
 
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