I'm glad you understood my comment, duckie, and I agree that it is one plus for ghost-ball aiming (providing one is able to accurately "see" the ghost ball, or its center, or where its base would be).
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Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
I'm glad you understood my comment, duckie, and I agree that it is one plus for ghost-ball aiming (providing one is able to accurately "see" the ghost ball, or its center, or where its base would be).
I absolutely, positively focus on the CB last.
After your body is aligned to the shot, you've decided how/where to contact the OB, and then slid into place.....well, most of the work is done. After that, it's a few moments of lubricating your stroke. I will look back and forth.....slowly.....from CB-to-OB-to-CB-to-OB....and finally resting with quiet eyes on the CB before finally pulling the trigger. The only reason I even look at the OB is because I'm in a brief moment of relaxation before completing the shot.
Any comparisons to throwing a football, etc. are usually flawed in such an obvious manner that I'm surprised that it's still being echoed.
When I win my first major tournament, the first thing I'm going to state on camera is that "I did it all CB last.....".
I guess my question is: What does one gain by looking at the OB last? Because I can tell you exactly what I gain by focusing on the CB.
After your body is aligned to the shot, you've decided how/where to contact the OB, and then slid into place.....well, most of the work is done. After that, it's a few moments of lubricating your stroke. I will look back and forth.....slowly.....from CB-to-OB-to-CB-to-OB....and finally resting with quiet eyes on the CB before finally pulling the trigger. The only reason I even look at the OB is because I'm in a brief moment of relaxation before completing the shot.
Any comparisons to throwing a football, etc. are usually flawed in such an obvious manner that I'm surprised that it's still being echoed.
When I win my first major tournament, the first thing I'm going to state on camera is that "I did it all CB last.....".
I guess my question is: What does one gain by looking at the OB last? Because I can tell you exactly what I gain by focusing on the CB.
these guys are all over the map,they dont know what they do and why very much,i have known other great pool players that cant tell you squat about the way they do things,they just tell you how they do it. There are way too many variables to control in the game and the only way you could control them would be with a robot in a lab,then you might learn why about things,but being able to duplicate things as a human is very difficult. Thats what makes things scientific,repeatablity,and non of us are so good that we can exactly repeat things. I can think of time when i am loading up the cueball with english and making everything i shoot at,and its few and far between,all of stars have to be aligned right that day,and it doesnt happen very often. The guys that are more consistent with the getting the most .,stars to line up in one day are the best players. when you are doing everything right its a good feeling,but you just dont realize how perfect you are for that day,it would blow our minds if we knew. The best we can do is practice the high percentage things,the variables we can control, exersize,sleep,eating right,and the amount of good practice,learning something about the game,rather then just beating balls around. Controlling the variables in our practice as much as possible, buy then we rely too heavily on them sometimes and forget how to let loose and play untuitively,in our unconscious minds. its a delicate balance, but that why we love the game so much i guess
Personal experience - eyes on OB before strike
So I read through this thread and found it quite interesting because it was something I'd never considered, maybe because I'd never studies with an instructor and just learned to play with friends, reading articles, and practicing...
At any rate, I first picked up pool playing during college (long time ago), and stopped playing for a good decade or so before getting back into it again. Honestly I cannot recollect during that time if my PSR had eyes on CB last or eyes on OB last. But since I got back into the game again, I have been eyeing OB last before striking.
I'll say I'm a decent recreation player right now... I know the importance of a consistent PSR and try to follow it when I'm at the table.
So last night I played some Eight Ball with a buddy and decided to try eyes on OB before striking, just to see if it makes a difference since I read here it's what instructors advocate.
Initially I was struggling a bit - no surprises there since it's a modification of my usual PSR. But a few games later I feel as if a new world opened up to me. Sounds cliche but that's indeed the feeling. My shots were hitting the center of pockets, OBs on rails were going into pockets hugging the rail all the way, draws were responsive, etc.
Afterwards I reflected on this and attribute the positive results to my subconscious being focused on executing/seeing the shot instead of just hitting the CB. Previously when I was focused on the CB before striking, sometimes my mind would overthink where to hit the CB and made myself prone to last minute adjustments that foul up the execution.
Bottom line, and this is just my own experience with one night of switching to eyes on OB before striking, I am keeping an open mind and tweaking this aspect of my PSR because I think it'll help me. I appreciate everyone's discussion on this thread.
So I read through this thread and found it quite interesting because it was something I'd never considered, maybe because I'd never studies with an instructor and just learned to play with friends, reading articles, and practicing...
At any rate, I first picked up pool playing during college (long time ago), and stopped playing for a good decade or so before getting back into it again. Honestly I cannot recollect during that time if my PSR had eyes on CB last or eyes on OB last. But since I got back into the game again, I have been eyeing OB last before striking.
I'll say I'm a decent recreation player right now... I know the importance of a consistent PSR and try to follow it when I'm at the table.
So last night I played some Eight Ball with a buddy and decided to try eyes on OB before striking, just to see if it makes a difference since I read here it's what instructors advocate.
Initially I was struggling a bit - no surprises there since it's a modification of my usual PSR. But a few games later I feel as if a new world opened up to me. Sounds cliche but that's indeed the feeling. My shots were hitting the center of pockets, OBs on rails were going into pockets hugging the rail all the way, draws were responsive, etc.
Afterwards I reflected on this and attribute the positive results to my subconscious being focused on executing/seeing the shot instead of just hitting the CB. Previously when I was focused on the CB before striking, sometimes my mind would overthink where to hit the CB and made myself prone to last minute adjustments that foul up the execution.
Bottom line, and this is just my own experience with one night of switching to eyes on OB before striking, I am keeping an open mind and tweaking this aspect of my PSR because I think it'll help me. I appreciate everyone's discussion on this thread.
Which ball do you shoot?
As long as you're bringing logic into it...you could have ended your sentence : "...there is no logical reason to look at__________". And her you could insert anything. Basically, as long as you have verified your aim, there is no logical reason to look at anything. However, regardless of what you look at, the only thing you are *doing* is shooting the cue tip at the cue ball. What happens after this is only a byproduct of this primary operation.
What do you think?
KMRUNOUT
Just updating as requested by Fran.
It has been almost 2 years now, Fran did suggest that I might evolve to object ball last. Not going to happen.
I have a pre-shot routine that I have developed thanks to input from;
My first instructor(a road player).
Information given by Johnny Archer in a TAR broadcast.
Knowledge derived from watching Earl Strickland.
Information posted by CJ Wiley on this forum.
Information posted by Paul Potier on his web site.
Knowledge from reading Willie Hoppe's book.
Pinpoint focus on the exact contact point on the cueball and the path of the tip through the cue ball is my goal on every shot.
I absolutely only play one day a week(Friday night). I practice a little on Saturday(usually a little hung over from Friday night). I work in Seattle Monday through Friday and have a 3 1/2 hour drive home that gets me home just in time for the Friday tournament.
I have been experiencing a good degree of success with my game. Including playing last weekend with a Grandmaster on a three man team in Pendleton Oregon. I was the weak link(obviously) and should not have been playing the final game of eight ball on a bar box.....but. The captain screwed up the order and when it was hill-hill in the final set, it was on me. While it was not a perfect game, my fundamentals and looking at the cueball last got me through a real pressure situation.
I am the one with the white beard.:wink:
It has been almost 2 years now, Fran did suggest that I might evolve to object ball last. Not going to happen.
I have a pre-shot routine that I have developed thanks to input from;
My first instructor(a road player).
Information given by Johnny Archer in a TAR broadcast.
Knowledge derived from watching Earl Strickland.
Information posted by CJ Wiley on this forum.
Information posted by Paul Potier on his web site.
Knowledge from reading Willie Hoppe's book.
Pinpoint focus on the exact contact point on the cueball and the path of the tip through the cue ball is my goal on every shot.
I absolutely only play one day a week(Friday night). I practice a little on Saturday(usually a little hung over from Friday night). I work in Seattle Monday through Friday and have a 3 1/2 hour drive home that gets me home just in time for the Friday tournament.
I have been experiencing a good degree of success with my game. Including playing last weekend with a Grandmaster on a three man team in Pendleton Oregon. I was the weak link(obviously) and should not have been playing the final game of eight ball on a bar box.....but. The captain screwed up the order and when it was hill-hill in the final set, it was on me. While it was not a perfect game, my fundamentals and looking at the cueball last got me through a real pressure situation.
I am the one with the white beard.:wink:
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What many players do not know, even if their aim is 100% correct, when they pull the trigger their backward and forward motion their stroke is not really 100% straight, and inadvertently apply english to the shot (usually same for all shots-habit-steer to right)
If it happens, that players bridge is in the pivot point, squirt will not happen, if it happens they did not have a stun shot, and the cue is leveled, then the CB most likely will still go very close to the intended target and probably make the ball, and no matter where you look the CB will still go as intended. . But unfortunately it is rarely the case
Your stance and foot position is extremely critical to guarantee 100% straight stroke, and only can be found with many hours of practice. Snooker stance, with cue stuck to chin and chest is great start, but must have foot position in exact place other wise you will have some shots with add unintentional english true much less than if your chin and chest way up high..
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Looking at the OB last serves 2 possible purposes:
1. It allows a player to make post alignment adjustments to correct for poor pre-alignment (arguably a method that encourages loose pre-alignment.
2. It allows a player to perceive the ghost ball to position pathway during execution of hit on the CB. (This one has some merit to me, but such CB positional paths can be predicted and executed with eyes on the CB during the stroke pretty well too.)
I'm quite happy looking at either in the end, so long as I have my bridge in the right place and have pre-determined where and how I will hit the CB.
Most people can't play well if they don't look at the OB on the final stroke because they swipe and shift their bridge to try to correct for loose pre-alignment as they shoot.
With regards to Ronnie O'Sullivan and players like him, he is often making slight thumb bridge adjustments within fractions of a second to when he hits the CB. He knows where he is hitting the CB, so no need to look back to it. I'm sure if he froze his bridge when it felt right, and looked back to CB, he'd perform pretty much the same.
1. It allows a player to make post alignment adjustments to correct for poor pre-alignment (arguably a method that encourages loose pre-alignment.
2. It allows a player to perceive the ghost ball to position pathway during execution of hit on the CB. (This one has some merit to me, but such CB positional paths can be predicted and executed with eyes on the CB during the stroke pretty well too.)
I'm quite happy looking at either in the end, so long as I have my bridge in the right place and have pre-determined where and how I will hit the CB.
Most people can't play well if they don't look at the OB on the final stroke because they swipe and shift their bridge to try to correct for loose pre-alignment as they shoot.
With regards to Ronnie O'Sullivan and players like him, he is often making slight thumb bridge adjustments within fractions of a second to when he hits the CB. He knows where he is hitting the CB, so no need to look back to it. I'm sure if he froze his bridge when it felt right, and looked back to CB, he'd perform pretty much the same.
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Well, since you asked, I look at cb while doing practice strokes, and really bare down to the exact spot on cb I'm going to hit. And then, during my shooting stroke, I pull the cue back, pause as the tip nears my thumb, and then slowly bring my eyes up to look at object ball. Just like CJ does, I just don't do it subconsciously, I have to think about it, but that is the only difference.
The reason it's imperative to watch the object ball last playing pocket billiards
You seem to be doing it correctly. I've found that I want to be very "object ball conscious" when I'm above the shot. As I go down I'm still favoring the object ball, HOWEVER, when my bridge hand contacts the felt I become almost totally "Cue Ball Conscious". Then, as you stated, it's essential to have a clear "cue ball target".
Then, from that point I'm just aware of the object ball's presence, so I can shift from "visual" to "kinesthetic" processes. When we decrease one of our senses, the others automatically get stronger, like shutting off the lights suddenly and our touch and hearing are amplified.
The reason it's imperative to watch the object ball last playing pocket billiards is to see where the object ball contacts the pocket. This is the "destination target" (the pocket), so to keep your game calibrated and sharp you must see this vividly.
Pool's a complicated game because of the ball IN BETWEEN the primary target and the destination target. This creates a scenario that is confusing at first because everything you do to the cue ball (spin wise) has an opposite reaction on the object ball.
You seem to be doing it correctly. I've found that I want to be very "object ball conscious" when I'm above the shot. As I go down I'm still favoring the object ball, HOWEVER, when my bridge hand contacts the felt I become almost totally "Cue Ball Conscious". Then, as you stated, it's essential to have a clear "cue ball target".
Then, from that point I'm just aware of the object ball's presence, so I can shift from "visual" to "kinesthetic" processes. When we decrease one of our senses, the others automatically get stronger, like shutting off the lights suddenly and our touch and hearing are amplified.
The reason it's imperative to watch the object ball last playing pocket billiards is to see where the object ball contacts the pocket. This is the "destination target" (the pocket), so to keep your game calibrated and sharp you must see this vividly.
Pool's a complicated game because of the ball IN BETWEEN the primary target and the destination target. This creates a scenario that is confusing at first because everything you do to the cue ball (spin wise) has an opposite reaction on the object ball.
Seeing what part of the pocket the object ball goes into is independent of watching the cue tip contact the cue ball. I can see both vividly. I am indeed looking at the object ball last(as it enters the pocket). I am also looking at the cue ball as I deliver the stroke(watching the cue tip contact the cue ball). The cue ball coming off the tip tells me if I hit it the way I wanted to. When the cue ball contacts the object ball I follow the object ball. Then I find out if I was aiming for the right place.:wink:
The trouble is when you put the object ball in the equation it creates a paradox
You sound like you're doing it fine. I would always recommend experimenting a bit each week by exaggerating how long you look at the object ball. This will also effect how long the pause is at the completion of your backstroke.
I always want to feel like my acceleration is cutting the ball more than where I'm aligned. This goes with favoring the inside of the pocket, and what makes this difficult to understand is the object ball between the primary and destination targets.
If their was no object ball and you just shot cue ball's in the pocket TOI would make perfect sense to everyone. I would just tell them to favor the right side of the pocket and cue the ball right of center.
The cue ball would deflect slightly and hit the center of the pocket. The trouble is when you put the object ball in the equation it creates a paradox and some players can't absorb the simple truth - because it appears to be the opposite. As we know, what you do to the cue ball has an opposite reaction on the cue ball - left english puts right spin on the ball for example. 'The Game is the Teacher' .com
You sound like you're doing it fine. I would always recommend experimenting a bit each week by exaggerating how long you look at the object ball. This will also effect how long the pause is at the completion of your backstroke.
I always want to feel like my acceleration is cutting the ball more than where I'm aligned. This goes with favoring the inside of the pocket, and what makes this difficult to understand is the object ball between the primary and destination targets.
If their was no object ball and you just shot cue ball's in the pocket TOI would make perfect sense to everyone. I would just tell them to favor the right side of the pocket and cue the ball right of center.
The cue ball would deflect slightly and hit the center of the pocket. The trouble is when you put the object ball in the equation it creates a paradox and some players can't absorb the simple truth - because it appears to be the opposite. As we know, what you do to the cue ball has an opposite reaction on the cue ball - left english puts right spin on the ball for example. 'The Game is the Teacher' .com
django does the same thing, i watched him for many years now he does the same.:smile:
This Technique is brutally strong and when you master it you will become feared
The Cue Ball is the target in pool, not the object ball, so the object ball just "reflects" how you hit the Cue Ball. The phenomenon of "Pinning" happens when a player is accelerating fully at the moment of contact with the edge of the tip (I rarely use the center of the tip's surface, the edge is more precise for accuracy and spin/toi)
There are a few ways to "aim" or "create angles" in pool. The most common one is to aim a part of the cue ball at a part of the object ball and try to hit it. This is the most common and it works, however you decide to "aim," whether by a system, by feel or by instinct.
The TOI technique I use creates angles a different way. It uses where you cue the Cue Ball relative to a consistent target on the object ball (either the edge or the center).
This means I'm not aiming at a "contact point," instead I'm CREATING the angle by moving the tip to the same side (inside) as I'm cutting the ball. If I"m cutting the ball to the right, I move the cue slightly to the right of center, if I"m cutting the ball to the left I move the tip slightly to the LEFT of center.
If you want to experiment with what I"m saying try this "for the sake of science." Put the Cue Ball on the head spot and the Object Ball on the foot spot. If you hit "center to center," with a center ball hit you will drive the OB straight into the rail and it will come back and hit the cue ball again (if hit perfectly).
Now, go down and aim it center to center again, but this time move the cue slightly to the right (MAKE sure to move the whole cue, don't "pivot" or just turn your tip). Hit the ball like you did {as if} it was straight in and it will cut the ball slightly to the right. Do it again and move the cue further to the right, hit it and you will see that it cuts the Object Ball further to the right (creating more angle).
Now set up a shot that is a slight cut, get down like it was straight in and move the cue slightly in the same direction of the cut and hit it. If you undercut the shot move over more on the cue ball, if you overcut it move over less from center.
This is how you calibrate the TOI and tune it in to start creating angles. My new video goes over this in detail and I explain things about the TOI Technique that I haven't even tried to explain in this Forum. This Technique is brutally strong and when you master it you will become a feared shotmaker. If this sounds "to good to be true," you haven't seen nothing yet. 'The Game is the Teacher'
The Cue Ball is the target in pool, not the object ball, so the object ball just "reflects" how you hit the Cue Ball. The phenomenon of "Pinning" happens when a player is accelerating fully at the moment of contact with the edge of the tip (I rarely use the center of the tip's surface, the edge is more precise for accuracy and spin/toi)
There are a few ways to "aim" or "create angles" in pool. The most common one is to aim a part of the cue ball at a part of the object ball and try to hit it. This is the most common and it works, however you decide to "aim," whether by a system, by feel or by instinct.
The TOI technique I use creates angles a different way. It uses where you cue the Cue Ball relative to a consistent target on the object ball (either the edge or the center).
This means I'm not aiming at a "contact point," instead I'm CREATING the angle by moving the tip to the same side (inside) as I'm cutting the ball. If I"m cutting the ball to the right, I move the cue slightly to the right of center, if I"m cutting the ball to the left I move the tip slightly to the LEFT of center.
If you want to experiment with what I"m saying try this "for the sake of science." Put the Cue Ball on the head spot and the Object Ball on the foot spot. If you hit "center to center," with a center ball hit you will drive the OB straight into the rail and it will come back and hit the cue ball again (if hit perfectly).
Now, go down and aim it center to center again, but this time move the cue slightly to the right (MAKE sure to move the whole cue, don't "pivot" or just turn your tip). Hit the ball like you did {as if} it was straight in and it will cut the ball slightly to the right. Do it again and move the cue further to the right, hit it and you will see that it cuts the Object Ball further to the right (creating more angle).
Now set up a shot that is a slight cut, get down like it was straight in and move the cue slightly in the same direction of the cut and hit it. If you undercut the shot move over more on the cue ball, if you overcut it move over less from center.
This is how you calibrate the TOI and tune it in to start creating angles. My new video goes over this in detail and I explain things about the TOI Technique that I haven't even tried to explain in this Forum. This Technique is brutally strong and when you master it you will become a feared shotmaker. If this sounds "to good to be true," you haven't seen nothing yet. 'The Game is the Teacher'
gregcantrall;3974538 [B said:Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.[/B]
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
More Ronnie O'Sullivan
I am watching the 2015 Masters match between Ronnie and Ricky Walden. I love the camera angle when they show the shooters eyes but they usually pull off the eyes just before the stroke. Here is one where they do not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAQ_DRy6eA0#t=4443
I am aware that Ronnies teaches to look at the object ball last. However you can see his eye movement very clearly in that clip. While he is close to the green he is not elevated and shooting from the balk line. So, even though he looks at the object ball last as a rule, this time his eyes appear to come up after contacting the cue ball.
I am watching the 2015 Masters match between Ronnie and Ricky Walden. I love the camera angle when they show the shooters eyes but they usually pull off the eyes just before the stroke. Here is one where they do not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAQ_DRy6eA0#t=4443
I am aware that Ronnies teaches to look at the object ball last. However you can see his eye movement very clearly in that clip. While he is close to the green he is not elevated and shooting from the balk line. So, even though he looks at the object ball last as a rule, this time his eyes appear to come up after contacting the cue ball.
Greg:
That was not a potting shot. Rather, that was a safety where he was more concerned about the spin he was putting on the cue ball, in reference to the fractional relationship of it with the object ball, than he was with sending that object ball to a pocket.
Even though I look at the OB last, I find myself looking at the CB last when I'm playing a match-opening safety break in 14.1, or when playing a "move" in one pocket.
-Sean
That is interesting. I will have to go look for archives of his show.
I notice I see him look at cue ball last only on long shots but not all long shots. The break shot just before this shot, he looks at the cue ball, the next his eyes are on the object ball.
It would be interesting to know when and why he chooses to look at the cue ball.