Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

Island Drive said:
Here's why obj. ball last.
Example high speed force follow shot.
If your not looking at the obj ball last, how are you going to know how much, or how little cb squirt occurred?
Did you hit it in pocket left of center, right of center or dead center?
If I'm looking at the cue ball last, I never got to see this.
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If you're watching the OB, you won't be able to tell how you hit the CB. Fact is you just gotta work out the details separately _and_ thoroughly.
 
Island Drive said:
Here's why obj. ball last.
Example high speed force follow shot.
If your not looking at the obj ball last, how are you going to know how much, or how little cb squirt occurred?
Did you hit it in pocket left of center, right of center or dead center?
If I'm looking at the cue ball last, I never got to see this.
Click to expand...
I am puzzled. My focus stays with the white rock after the cuetip launch. I have no problem reading the transfer of spin or lack thereof at impact with the object ball. The precision of my path choice is obvious within an inch of launch. I definitely see any variation from the intended path and expected colision. But as Yogi said, "I can observe a lot by watching". 🤷‍♂️
 
I agree, if you truly are looking at the CB last as well as focusing on the cue tip following straight down the target line on the follow through, if you miss, sometimes you don’t even know what went wrong, as you often do not even see what side of the pocket you missed on.

However, for me, I am now committed to CB last. I’ve been pleased with my results so far, and I’m confident it’s only going to get better. Is it hard to trust and commit to when you have distance between the CB and OB, you bet it is!
 
gregcantrall said:
View attachment 800492I focus on the path I want the tip to take through the ball.
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I have this in a 1k piece puzzle. One of the tougher puzzles I’ve done.

OB last for me. Except for shots from the rail and the like. CB last seems like a good test for proper setup and alignment, I know for sure that I sometimes compensate last minute with some cue steer or minor adjustment when my brain realizes something is off.
 
Just a plug... the DigiBall will allow you to always watch the OB, since it tells you exactly where you hit the CB.
 
The hand and eye coordination:
Kind of funny that my Google search for hand eye coordination drills turns up juggling. Something I did during my time warming the bench when playing baseball. The next hit was Drawing. Something that the slightest variation in finger pressures can change the result significantly.
My analogy would be to think of my cue as a musical instrument or paint brush rather than a club. Barry Stark teaching the ring finger as the trigger finger has helped me.
The Robotics of a stable platform with consistent mechanical movements, like juggling is based on memory. The skeleton or framework is consistent. The hand movements are adjusted as my eyes give the assessment of trajectory and velocity.
While my concentration or focus is on driving my cue tip through a precise spot at a precise vector. My visual focus is on the cueball and how it reacts when struck. My vision stays with the cueball until it strikes the object ball. My focus is so tight on the second colision that the rotation of the object ball as it starts to move is vivid. At the separation of cueball and object ball My eyes can follow either ball. Normally my observation of whitey on it's path tells me if I have struck it right. So my eyes stay with the white to its final rest. The projected and actual results are then compared and added to the data base.
My experience varying the finger pressures between index, middle and ring fingers has been illuminating. The middle finger tapping of the bridge hand I witness in a few snooker players makes me think that their middle finger is the trigger. I tap my ring finger on my bridge hand just to remind myself that it's the trigger.
 
In the event of a miss cue; Something that I just watched John Higgins suffer. I should have better data to analyze when watching the cueball as the tip impacts it. If my eyes have moved to the object ball at the moment of that collision I have less to work with in analyzing whether my calculation was wrong or was it the execution. 🤷‍♂️
 
My favorite shot making drill.
Colin's drill.
the number 1 shot is a doozie. It does however give the assessment and adjustment route. Which can lead to interesting observations, that begin with watching. 🤷‍♂️
If nothing else it shows me that the slightest variation in the fingers pressure and coordination can change the path significantly. Shrug 🤷‍♂️ Besides I am here for the reps. Physical therapy. 😉
Creating a challenge and pitting right vs left, I strive to exercise my cognitive abilities. Keep score. Solve problems.
A game of Horse is a favorite morning challenge.
Pick-a-shot.....any shot.
 
ShootingArts said:
I'm sure I have said it before in this endless thread but after becoming proficient at object ball last and using it almost exclusively for years I decided to try cue ball last. I used cue ball last for over 200 hours. At the end of that weeks long test I was playing no better or no worse looking at the cue ball last. Both work, neither perfect on long enough shots, most, when you can't focus on cue ball, object ball, and pocket, all at the same time.

Some great players have used cue ball last. Many great players use object ball last. Many more said they did but video showed their eyes shifting back to the cue ball during the final stroke.

I usually tack this off topic story on as an example of what people say and what they do. I was at a major invitational benchrest shoot. The best from all over the nation, a smattering of international shooters. Benchrest shooters use a free recoil technique. Without touching any other part of the rifle carefully set up on the bags, they touch the one to two ounce trigger only and catch the rifle with their shoulder after the bullet has left the barrel. At the time maybe 95% of benchrest shooters used this technique, or so they said!

I took a walk behind the firing line during a relay I wasn't shooting in. Of the forty-five or more shooters less than five were actually shooting free recoil. The rest were touching the stock to their shoulder with a feather light touch or had their shooting hand lightly touching the rifle. I went back to my reloading bench and glued a tiny piece of 3/4" thick very soft foam rubber to my butt plate so I could feel when I was 3/4" behind my rifle. Several people commented on my recoil pad, I explained that I needed it to protect my shoulder!

What people say they do and what they do aren't always the same. Watching the best in the world, more than a few had their eyes back to the cue ball before they hit it including many of the "object ball last" pro's. I found this during another heated thread about what to look at last ten years or more ago so my info is a bit dated but probably as true now as then.

There is no ideal eye pattern, there is no ideal stroke. The truth is a human body is a piss poor design to play pool with. I think an octopus has a far better body design to play pool with but none have shown any interest in learning, demonstrating their high intelligence also!(grin)

Hu
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Exactly and that's what makes this dude's decade+ long odyssey to prove his point just a tad disturbing tbh.
 
nataddrho said:
Just a plug... the DigiBall will allow you to always watch the OB, since it tells you exactly where you hit the CB.
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Yes. You can never look at both simultaneously, you need to pick one. But if you pick the OB, then you can go back and look at the DigiBall CB tip contact results a few seconds later. This is for training of course, not as part of a permanent routine.

It is useful for students of the game that are looking for small accuracy details. Probably most of us on this forum. Maybe not for beginners as they don't yet understand the significance of small details.
 
For those interested, I have improved and expanded my eye pattern best practices resource page over the last few months. Here are pertinent excerpts related to this thread:

A good generally recommended eye pattern is:
  1. Look at OB while getting down into your stance, and look at the CB as the tip gets close.
  2. Look back and forth between the CB and OB with the cue still to verify tip position and aim alignment.
  3. Look at CB during any warm-up strokes. Alternatively, look at the CB during forward stroke and the OB during backstroke.
  4. Stop at the CB and do one more tip and aim check with the cue still.
  5. Lock your focus on the OB before the final stroke. Alternatively, if you have a long backstroke pause, lock the focus during the pause.
  6. Keep your focus along the target line during and after the final stroke, resisting the urge to turn your head or get up to see where the OB is going.
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The reason why most top players in all cue sports focus on the OB before and during the final stroke is: The distant focus helps you deliver the cue more straight toward your target. This is the case in other sports like with free throws in basketball (with focus on the rim), bowling (with focus on the arrows down the lane), baseball pitching (with focus on the target over the plate), horseshoes (with focus on the stake), and darts, archery, and shooting (with focus on the target), where you always want your final focused gaze to be at the distant target. This helps maintain straight aim and helps ensure straighter implement delivery in the target direction. Also, focus on the OB helps ensure you keep your head and body still during and after the stroke (instead of looking up from CB focus to see where the CB is heading). Also, with OB focus, you can better diagnose and learn from each shot since you can more clearly see the direction the CB heads and where it hits the OB, without needing to move your eyes or head during the shot.
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Why do athletes in other sports like racquet sports, batting sports, and golf focus on the ball being struck with the implement instead of the ball target?

In dynamic racquet and batting sports, where the ball is moving, it is much more effective to focus on the moving ball (instead of where you want to send the ball) because you need to predict where the ball will be at the moment of contact and react very quickly. In pool, the CB is stationary so you know exactly where it will be at the moment of contact, and no fast reaction is required. Concerning golf, your gaze direction is very different for the target (looking along the desired line or landing zone down the fairway, or the cup or flag on the green) as compared to the ball (looking straight down). If you are looking at the target, you will not be able to accurately strike the ball with the club. This is analogous to elevated shots in pool like jump shots, where the gaze direction at the CB is very different from the gaze direction at the OB. With elevated pool shots, most people are more effective focusing on the CB during the final stroke, especially if the target ball is far down table. If you are looking at the OB during the stroke, you might not get an accurate hit on the CB, which is so critical with elevated shots, where even a tiny tip placement error can result in a miss.
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dr_dave said:
over
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Stephen Hendry snooker GOAT until overtaken by Ronnie. Ronnie O'Sullivan's only words I am aware of was, "it could be either."
Willie Hoppe 3 cushion GOAT.
Jason Shaw the all time Straight pool high run champion.
Spans most cue games. That's 3.5 on the cueball.
Then Willie Mosconi and Efren Reyes for GOAT titles in cue sports and they did say object ball last.
So your classified "Most" is misleading. My best analogy would be to speak of "Most" never own "The Greatest" title either. Tells nothing as to what advantage cueball last can provide.
I can feel the advantage that I get when I follow my prescribed procedure.......which ends with focus on the strike to whitey.
It never ceases to amaze me the emotions that arise from what should be a logical and or analytical discussion.
 
Cricket Zzzzzzzz. Oh well . So much for logical analysis if and or of the provided evidence. With "Peer pressure " and All. 😉
 
If you run with the "Big Dogs". Keep up or move to the side. The professional driver angle. 😉
Never play a cab driver for money. 😉
 
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