Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
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I would say most people don't have a clue what they are looking at last. Consciously the may think they are looking at the object ball but their subconscious is controlling the process and they are looking at cue ball, or just the opposite.
Try this put a blinder on that doesn't allow you to look at the cue ball and shoot 50 shots, do the same without and see what works best. After that if you are a golfer go to the practice tee and hit 50 balls, but look at the flag don't look at the golf ball and let me know how that works for you. Yes the golf ball is stationary like a pool ball, and is hit with a stick, like a cue, and....
Lastly, congrats to the OP for finding something that works for him. Everyone should be patting him on the back.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Try this put a blinder on that doesn't allow you to look at the cue ball and shoot 50 shots, do the same without and see what works best. After that if you are a golfer go to the practice tee and hit 50 balls, but look at the flag don't look at the golf ball and let me know how that works for you. Yes the golf ball is stationary like a pool ball, and is hit with a stick, like a cue, and....
Lastly, congrats to the OP for finding something that works for him. Everyone should be patting him on the back.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
He could be talking about aiming lines, ghost balls, being dismissive about aiming systems in general. Or he could be emphasizing on how important it is to align your stance to the shot. Again, there is no context. He could very well say, Once you're down on the shot, the CB doesn't matter. In many plausible contexts, that would make sense. Or he could say, Once you're down on the shot, the CB or the OB doesn't matter. Then you'd have people say Johnny Archer looks at the space between the balls last.
The point is, this is easily verifiable through some video footage. What we have here is a boatload of confirmation bias.
-roger
I posted this here as I was not looking for input from instructors.
I posted this to the main forum as I was relating some rather surprising(to me) results I got in a personal experiment.
I am not looking for guidance and am certainly not selling any snake oil, uh er aiming system.
My point in posting is showing that having an open mind can lead to some unexpected results and no mater how much you know about billiards you can always learn more.
The results I have attained could be due to other factors combined with the looking at the cue ball as I stroke. There is a chance that this is just a step along the way. Perhaps this experiment has lead me to creating the rock solid stance and consistent pre stance aiming I have always aspired to. I expected better cueball control and got it. I did not expect more consistent success and better accuracy on difficult shots and I am getting that as well. Confidence is such a big factor in this game and just the fact that I am now more confident plays a big part as well. Some lights have come on for me. I now have a feeling for some of the things CJ was trying to explain about TOI. Things that I had written off as 'not for me' or just I was not ready to try yet. Which will lead me to even more experimentation! Could I get lost or confused with so much experimenting? Certainly, but it is still fun.:grin:
One last point; I did take some time to make the original post. I put a great deal of thought into how to present it in the least confrontational manner possible. I also provided a link to the Wikipedia for Willie Hoppie. Willie Hoppie's advice to "look at the cueball while executing the stroke", was what lead me to experiment doing just that. I can not imagine a credible instructor just dismissing his advice without qualification. If you look at the time stamps on the earliest "Nay Sayers" posts, you will see that they barely had time to read it no less give it any consideration.
I posted this to the main forum as I was relating some rather surprising(to me) results I got in a personal experiment.
I am not looking for guidance and am certainly not selling any snake oil, uh er aiming system.
My point in posting is showing that having an open mind can lead to some unexpected results and no mater how much you know about billiards you can always learn more.
The results I have attained could be due to other factors combined with the looking at the cue ball as I stroke. There is a chance that this is just a step along the way. Perhaps this experiment has lead me to creating the rock solid stance and consistent pre stance aiming I have always aspired to. I expected better cueball control and got it. I did not expect more consistent success and better accuracy on difficult shots and I am getting that as well. Confidence is such a big factor in this game and just the fact that I am now more confident plays a big part as well. Some lights have come on for me. I now have a feeling for some of the things CJ was trying to explain about TOI. Things that I had written off as 'not for me' or just I was not ready to try yet. Which will lead me to even more experimentation! Could I get lost or confused with so much experimenting? Certainly, but it is still fun.:grin:
One last point; I did take some time to make the original post. I put a great deal of thought into how to present it in the least confrontational manner possible. I also provided a link to the Wikipedia for Willie Hoppie. Willie Hoppie's advice to "look at the cueball while executing the stroke", was what lead me to experiment doing just that. I can not imagine a credible instructor just dismissing his advice without qualification. If you look at the time stamps on the earliest "Nay Sayers" posts, you will see that they barely had time to read it no less give it any consideration.
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You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target"
You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'
In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppie considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.
The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.
The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.
The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.
Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.
Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!
Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.
So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.:thumbup:
Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.
You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'
A discussion with Mosconi
My good friend was lucky enough to share some time with Mosconi back when he was just 16 years old (my buddy, not Mosconi). He said Willie always looked at the cue ball when making his final stroke.
My good friend was lucky enough to share some time with Mosconi back when he was just 16 years old (my buddy, not Mosconi). He said Willie always looked at the cue ball when making his final stroke.
Omg
I thought Mosconi was the greatest until I saw him refuse to autograph a picture for a kid in a wheel chair. This was around 1985 at the Sands in Reno. He did a trick shot presentation and afterwards it was not like he was being swamped for autographs. The kid had one of the promotional photos of Willie that was printed with his signature but he wanted a real autograph on it. Willie just brushed past him saying "It's already autgraphed!"
WOW, when I first started playing pool back in 1974, I bought a book, well more like a pamphlet by Willie Mosconi. Could have possibley been BCA rules with some basic instruction by Mosconi. I thought he instructed to aim back and forth with the object ball being last. Could have been a misconception or assumption on my part.
I thought Mosconi was the greatest until I saw him refuse to autograph a picture for a kid in a wheel chair. This was around 1985 at the Sands in Reno. He did a trick shot presentation and afterwards it was not like he was being swamped for autographs. The kid had one of the promotional photos of Willie that was printed with his signature but he wanted a real autograph on it. Willie just brushed past him saying "It's already autgraphed!"
Don't jump to conclusions
I wasn't criticizing you for starting a new thread. Merely suggesting that people look at the comments on the other thread rather than expecting the instructors to repeat their comments here.
I thought the instructors did a nice job with this issue.
I wasn't criticizing you for starting a new thread. Merely suggesting that people look at the comments on the other thread rather than expecting the instructors to repeat their comments here.
I thought the instructors did a nice job with this issue.
remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target
I'm going to talk to him later today, I'll ask him for you guys. Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening.
I'm going to talk to him later today, I'll ask him for you guys. Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening.
Looking at the cue ball last can improve the purity of your stroke. I advise to try it for practice on a wide variety of shots, however you may only want to use it for select shots in competition.
The spot shot may prove to be a good selection to start with.
The spot shot may prove to be a good selection to start with.
My personal experiences have led me to vary which I look at last depending on the shot.
I've taken lessons and played with several pro player, one of which really helped me out on certain shots by telling me to look at the cue ball last.
Shots like jacked up over other balls, frozen on the rail, jacked up close to the rail, etc. His claim was that these shots were much easier to mis hit the cue ball and therefore hitting the cue correctly was the most important factor, thus looking at the cue ball last was the way to go.
After playing and experimenting, I wholeheartedly agree with this approach.
I'm sure other players have found looking at the CB last on other types of shots including routine ones to be beneficial as well.
I've taken lessons and played with several pro player, one of which really helped me out on certain shots by telling me to look at the cue ball last.
Shots like jacked up over other balls, frozen on the rail, jacked up close to the rail, etc. His claim was that these shots were much easier to mis hit the cue ball and therefore hitting the cue correctly was the most important factor, thus looking at the cue ball last was the way to go.
After playing and experimenting, I wholeheartedly agree with this approach.
I'm sure other players have found looking at the CB last on other types of shots including routine ones to be beneficial as well.
Mike...You're mistaking "focus" for where your eyes are at contact with the CB. They are two separate things. JA does not look at the CB when he strikes it. He does, however, focus on the CB intently, as part of the overall process.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
This is how Stan Shuffett described to me how he (Stan Shuffett) does it. His words were that he probably looks at the cue ball for about 80% of the setup process. I cannot remember today for sure but I believe he looks at the object ball last.
Ken
Tennesseejoe...Where you look last has no bearing whatsoever on the "purity" of your stroke. Two separate issues entirely. If your stroke is accurate and repeatable, and you know how to aim (line up correctly), then the spot shot will be made with 1) eyes on CB, 2) eyes on OB, or 3) eyes closed.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
"real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct,in a manner of speaking
I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking.
I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking.
Link to Ask The Instructor thread.
Why Object Ball Last?
Excuse me Donny, my reply looks rude or flip. That was not my intention. I think you have a valid point and will include a link to that thread in the Original Post as well as right here.:thumbup:
Why Object Ball Last?
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Yes, I agree with you Scott. My point, which should have been explained in more detail, is if you practice looking at the cue ball last you will see if your stroke is going as intended. If there is any deviation, it may be noticed. Just a little way to check your stroke. Thanks for the carification.
I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking.
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Do you shift focus before, during or after the last backstroke?
Thank you for sharing!
Ken
this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this. "The Game, Allow it to Teach'
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this. "The Game, Allow it to Teach'