Failure, Again

I am with you there Mike! Something just doesnt look right there. It to me looks like that when he was tapping the threads that the tap bottomed out and spun. I have been using big pins now for the last couple years without any problems. But, I also use a phenolic rings also!! It kinda looks like to me that maybe it was under drilled also from the pics. Which would put some extra stress on the shaft if not done correctly!
 
failure

You mentioned that you shipped the cue out. Was it going from a dry climate environment into a 100% humidity? Swelling of the wood on the screw wouldn't be seen in the shop but might change the diameter enough to cause an excessive tightening of the screw. Just a guess at this point. The g-10 would not be as expansive so the dissimilar expansion coefficients due to humidity swelling may be the culprit.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues
 
Fatsix

I picture of the broken shaft installed on the butt might help.

I, for one, would like to see how the screw fits into those threads. Particularly how deep it goes into the threaded hole.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
patrickcues said:
I am with you there Mike! Something just doesnt look right there. It to me looks like that when he was tapping the threads that the tap bottomed out and spun. I have been using big pins now for the last couple years without any problems. But, I also use a phenolic rings also!! It kinda looks like to me that maybe it was under drilled also from the pics. Which would put some extra stress on the shaft if not done correctly!
Click to expand...

Your right, it looks like a tapered hole. I wonder, for the guys who drill undersized, If they know what the minor is on the screws they are using.
 
Here are a couple possible causes.

The wood was fractured when threading, are you clearing the tap of chips after each turn and is the pilot hole the correct size.

The threads are slightly tapered that would cause pressure.

A collar would certainly strengthen the joint.
 
Failure, again

Couple of observations:
Not sure number of growth rings relates to strength of maple. Playability maybe, but strength may be a stretch.

With so many manufacturers of pins, Mike is dead on about minor diameter questions.

Leonard always told be to have a little relief at the joint around the pin, IE, your centering hole should be a a bit bigger than your major diameter of the pin thread.

I would never guarantee a no ring, no insert shaft.
I bet the shaft was fuzzy when it was being turned.

And last but not least, you get what you pay for! Not only in quality but customer service.
 
tbayplayer said:
This happen to my sneakiestpete break shaft, it is the same split
Click to expand...

Funny, this the second time that happened to my wifes sneakiestpete, and he says he's never had breakage issues, what a LIAR. :mad:

There should be pictures on the first page. Pin in the shaft and all.
 
heres a copy of the pm's

Him:
We inspected the shaft and have determined that the break was not caused by a manufacturing defect. I have a couple different options for you at this point. One is that we can repair the cue and send it back to you at a charge of $50.00 including the return shipping. That is below my cost to do the work. The other option is to offer you a partial refund of $80.00 and we go our seperate ways.
I'm very sorry that you and your wife encountered the difficulties that have occured

Me:
Sorry for the delay in response. I just returned from vacation. I have invested in a new cue and will take the $80 refund. I'm not happy about it, but it is what it is. I still dont understand how the conclusion was made that the breakage was caused 100% by abuse. I started that thread to find out why this happened, not to point fingers or flame your product.

Him:
I can appreciate where you are coming from. I'll paypal you Friday after I get paid.

Yes I did take the $80, but i still feel like it was done dirty. That there are underlieing issues and they are being kept hidden, hense the second person came forward about their sneakiestpete shaft breaking. I paid $130 for the cue, plus another $15 in shipping each time it broke (twice). Paying another $50 for another junk shaft wasnt feasable. I know its partially my fault for thinking a $130 should last. I was keeping quiet trying to figure out why this happened, because deep down I know it wasnt abused. Now that i find out there are others shafts breaking and him telling me its only me. Now that theese junk Sneakiestpetes are sold on this website, its HIS job to make things right to do business on the board and with the AZ community, and at least listen to his peers.
 
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I don't think that hole has a taper to it. I think that due to the angle of the split, it just looks like it has a taper to it. If you cut the shaft in half, perpendicular to the joint face, that hole wouldn't look tapered at all.
 
The only thing that may be logical would be if the tap was fed in while the machine was running, when it bottoms out, the force itself could have caused a stress crack. That's just a somewhat educated guess besides the actual size of the hole and the pitch of the screw theory.
 
This shouldn't be a problem if done correctly.
I tap all my shafts under power. That's one of the advantages of 3ph, instant reverse. Mark the tap for the correct depth and hit reverse when you reach the mark. Cake.
 
I just had a break cue come back the same way. I watched the person that I sold it to break with his old cue. Every time he broke he drove the ferrule into the table and you could see the shaft flex. I wasn't to worried because the break cue was for his father. A few weeks later I get a call from the son and he tells me that the shaft broke. When I asked him if he was breaking with it he insisted that his father was breaking with it when it failed. When I got the shaft back it was split very similar to what you see in your pics, except it didn't completely separate. When I looked at the ferrule it had numerous burnish marks on the side of the tip and ferrule (from being dragged across the cloth). The taper on my break cues are very stiff and if you push it into the table it's going to give at the least point of resistance, the joint. I would like to see pics of the side of the tip and ferrule. Once maybe a problem, twice with the same person, guarentee he's pushing the ferrule into the cloth and bending the shaft. Mine had a 3/8-10 pin and did have a thread insert.
 
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KJ Cues said:
This shouldn't be a problem if done correctly.
I tap all my shafts under power. That's one of the advantages of 3ph, instant reverse. Mark the tap for the correct depth and hit reverse when you reach the mark. Cake.
Click to expand...

Good point. What time is saved, 3 maybe 4 seconds.
 
Split Shaft Joint

Hi,

Here's my thoughts.

I think the minor dia. was bored or step drilled to an undersize dimension. The squeeking sound reveales the old 2 pounds of crap in a 1 pound bag senerio. The tap started the stress that caused the mishap in the pool room.

If boring a hole it is better to have a go gauge to indicate the minor dia. required so you can sneak up on the final dimension. This takes away measuring errors.

I also have to question if a bottoming tap was used after the #1 tappered tap.

At any case, there was laterial pressure exerted causing an expansion coeffecient to the wall cross section of the wood fibers. Once this expansion occured the action of hitting the ball promoted total balistic failure.

This cue company needs to investigate their process control procedure for this operation. Once a root cause has been discovered, they need to implement corective actions and reveal lessons learned.

Rick Geschrey
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

This cue company needs to investigate their process control procedure for this operation. Once a root cause has been discovered, they need to implement corective actions and reveal lessons learned.

Rick Geschrey
Click to expand...


They have, it has been diagnosed several times as abuse by the player. However my shafts that i sent back were pristine, no burnishmarks or anything just split out at the collar. They were so nice that they cut the tip off the old one and glued it onto the next one. However no explanation of how they came to the conclusion of 100% abuse was ever forwarded or explained to me.
 
dunkelcustomcue said:
I watched the person that I sold it to break with his old cue. Every time he broke he drove the ferrule into the table and you could see the shaft flex.
Click to expand...

You have raised a good point.I had a cue break, and the cause is flex while breaking, even the player is not aware that they are doing it. I have seen some pictures of people breaking, and the result is like bending the cue as if it were a bow.
If the shaft is fairly flexable, then the joint and handle do not suffer as much. But when it is a stiffer shaft, then the handle and joint become the victims, or what ever point has the most stress and the least give.
I am sure that the driving of the shatft into the table syndrome is the reason for eventual structural damage to the handle and the joint pin.

I have never seen damage to one of my cues where it is only used for the play after the break. The damage has either been on the break or hitting really hard the cue to the side of the table.

My sugestion for the starter of the thread, is to use a break cue from the bar or where ever they are playing,or else learn to break without the ferrule hitting the cloth.
Neil
 
conetip said:
My sugestion for the starter of the thread, is to use a break cue from the bar or where ever they are playing,or else learn to break without the ferrule hitting the cloth.
Neil
Click to expand...

She uses a J&J J/B cue. This happened during a warmup with a light break. She doesnt drag her cue on the table like your are mentioning. Like i've said above, the shafts ferruls and tips were pristine, No signs of damage, dragging, or dents.
 
Customers Abuse Cues

Dear Fatsix,

Many posts have been made here and if you noticed a lot has been said about the importance of a joint collar. All of the speculation aside, if those shafts had a joint collar I bet this would not have happened. Also remember, this is a big pin which leaves a thinner wall. A lot of sneakys have inserts in the shaft.

Blaming the customer is going to be a losing approach in the long term. Why do other cue shafts stay together with a big whip break.

Before a root cause analysis can be performed one must first admit that there is a problem.

Rick Geschrey
 
You can see a small chip on the butt by the joint. the chip is directly on top of the piece that popped off, possibly from downward pressure? If this was anything to do with the tapping and pressure from inside of the shaft wouldn't it have broken along the grain lines? I'd like to know how many of these cues are out their and how many have had broken shafts? The shaft may have been fractured already and the force of another break broke it lose. gotta admit I've never reused any tip after I cut it off.
 
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