Is there a numerical breakdown of fargo rate to AA on down?
Fargo rating to letter rating?
- Thread starter strmanglr scott
- Start date
From what I can see by known players and Fargo ratings,
Pro is 750 or so and up, Open (AA, AAA) is 700-750 A- to A+ 600-700, you can go down a level for every 100 past that,so B ranges from 5-600, C 400-500, D 400 and bellow.
You'll find on this page. Keep scrolling. God ole Dr. Dave has it covered.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/ratings.html
![CropperCapture[58].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/345/345571-48e8baa52ed018ebe14d26069cefc3c6.jpg "CropperCapture[58].png")
I was just there before and didn't see it, thx.
I've added it in a couple of places. For future reference, the ratings comparison table is on the following resource pages:
A-D rating system
Billiard University (BU) playing-ability rating system
FargoRate rating and handicapping system
And here are direct links to a PDF version and an image version.
It should be easier to find in the future.
Regards,
Dave
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And also one that varies widely but geographical area. For example, I'm considered a flat A in the Rhode Island area. My Fargo is 666. I am not a satan worshipper I promise. In NY, I got moved up to an A+ mid tourney about 6 months or so ago.
If I encountered a Rhode Island B+ playing as anything other than a 7 and a 9 in the APA I would be disgusted and outraged. Particularly in the 8 ball.
My Fargo might be a little high, although I guess I'm reasonably established.
My point is that a B+, or A, or whatever in one area of the country might mean something very different in another area of the country. There is a guy near me who is 730, and is a total monster...beat Jayson Shaw, Mika, Karen Corr, Dechaine, other tip top pros. Hard not to call him a "Pro". So I'd say the pro level begins well below 750.
Just my opinion,
KMRUNOUT<-----------loves Fargo!
The letter scores are static not matter where you are. Is is based on how well you play vs the ghost not league ratings. An A player will run out 8-9 balls in 9 ball no matter where they are. A B player will run out 6-7 balls no matter where they are.
The issue comes up is when people take those scores and apply them as something they are not, like ratings in a tournament that don't apply to the actual skill level but to a relative rating vs other players. In that case you should use a number rating not a letter rating. It's like ranking cars but instead of saying a A car can hit 180mph, you say an A car is not as good as the car that is an A+ car without specifying speeds. In the real ABCD rating, each rating has a specific number of balls the player can run before making a mistake, and also what usually happens when they play. So a B- could run 5 then miss a simple or medium shot or scratch or mess up a safe. A B+ can run 6 but then leave the table safe for the opponent or miss a tough shot.
The ratings in this case were not absolute but relative, not because of your actual rating. The letter rating used were in a tournament or league, not your actual skill. A 666 can be an A, or an A+, it is a bit on the edge. A player can easily play half a level under or over their skill. A 730 Fargo is a very strong player, it can be a lower level pro, just not a consistent high level pro like Strickland, Archer or SVB. You can't really say that a 730 will lose to a 750 all the time, but maybe 4 of 7 they will lose an even race, maybe even 5 of 9. I am guessing you are talking about either Nelson or Shorty, I doubt any of them will play SVB or Dechaine or those types of guys even if they can help it, and it is right for their level. I have seen Shorty run 4-5 racks, but I don't see him in the top finishers all the time at Derby or US Open or Turning Stone along with the 750+ Fargo guys.
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But who gets to decide the "real" letter ratings? They are all over the place, and every region that uses them feels a claim to legitimacy. Check out Midwest Poolplayers Association
http://www.mpapool.com/Player
There are 10,000 players who have been using these letter ratings for a long long time, and here an "A" player plays at about 500-575 speed. It is a world of difference from New England/mid atlantic meaning. MPA has B and C below that and AA and M (master) above that. These letter ratings just need to go away. There's no good reason to have them.
Nelson was the Joss tour leader last session. He ran a 7 pack of 10 ball on Karen Corr. He ran 8 in practice. If that isn't pro speed, I don't know what is. I was talking directly to the comment about a pro being over 750. Joey is only 687 and double dipped Dechaine in the finals of a pro tourney. That's all I'm saying. I agree with what you mentioned in your post.
KMRUNOUT
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
I personally consider pro speed to be about 730ish or so on the low end but I realize we all define pro speed a little differently. Since the BCAPL already treats those above 720 as de facto pros at nationals by not allowing them to play in any of the singles amateur events etc, I suggest we should all just start to consider 720 as the recognized cut off line for pro speed since a major organization is already using it and for most of us it is probably pretty close to what we would have picked anyway.
If I understand your post correctly, then I have to disagree. I have been traveling for work for the last decade. I have been ranked as an A, A+, A++, AA, AAA, and AAAA. Everywhere you go, the letters mean something different.
That is because people keep using them incorrectly not because the rating changes. If you use A as "very good" then you get someone better, you have AA. Issue with that, is that there is no solid answer there as to what an A is, just that you are better than someone that is a B. But how good is a B? Well, he is better than a C. And there is the issue, the people doing the ratings don't understand how they are actually assigning the ratings to the players since they are doing it relative to others. Bill is good, he is an A, oh wait, now we have Joe playing, he is better than Bill so he is an AA. But Joe can't run 7 balls with ball in hand, he is just better than Bill. So this place now has an AA player that is actually a B. And the parade starts with now we need an AAA that is really an A.
A yard is a yard no matter where you go, the issue will start when someone decides a yard should be 2.5 feet instead of 3.
If you give out specific things that an A player can do, which is run out 8-9 balls more than half the time with ball in hand, then you do that no matter where you are. If you can run out 8-9 balls almost every time you are an A+, if you can run out 9-10 balls with ball in hand, you are an AA or AAA. It does not matter where you are, as long as whoever does the rating actually follows the same guideline. Which they should. If they don't, there is no rating system.
I agree that would work, it just doesn't happen like that. Everyone measures the yard differently. Maybe I did misunderstand you.
You seem to be wanting two things
(1) letters to be associated with absolute performance
(2) You/your region to be the one to do the defining
Good luck getting people in the upper midwest to redefine what speed "A" is or people in Arizona to redefine what "8" speed is to match Oklahoma. It's not gonna happen. However these assignments happened originally, they've morphed into something that has teeth and roots in each region. People DO have a specific level of performance in mind around here when they say "A player," and it is very different from what you describe.
If you really want labels of different absolute skill-levels, I suggest inventing completely new names. But at the same time, I don't understand why you want to do that.
It's not what I want, it is what it is. An A player is an A player no matter where they are, just like a car that can drive at 140mph can drive that in any state. I don't see how people can possible define ABCD ranking as any different from what they are. A D player is just a bit past beginner, he/she can run a ball or two and struggles with position or has no idea about how to play position. A C player can start to run several balls with some idea or where to go for next ball and has some sort of a basic safety game. A B player can run 5-6 balls and knows how to plan shape and safe, they may run 2 racks at times, maybe 3 very rarely. An A player can run 7 or more balls consistently and plays good position and when playing safe rarely do they sell out, A players can run 2-3 racks several times in a tournament. An AA (or Open) player can run out even better and has tighter safety play, they may beat the 9 ball ghost or even 10 ball ghost most of the time and can run 2-3-4 packs. A Pro player can constantly run out 9+ balls with ball in hand, almost never gives up a shot during a safe and can string several racks often.
What is wrong with those descriptions and how do they vary from area to area? Now if you start talking about what tournaments do, that is up to them, calling an A player a B for a tournament does not change the fact that they play like an A. Or rather the opposite happens, which is why you see people win handicapped tournaments that are under-rated rather than those that play well. Players are not honest and oddly enough tournament directors don't know how to rank people properly in many cases. When you have 6 people saying this guy is too low, and then this guy finishes top 4, maybe those 6 people are right. In most events I see people too low for how they play, and in most events those people are the ones that finish high or win. One tournament in 15 minutes of being there I saw a few players that were shooting over what their rating was. 6 hours later those 2 players won. In the Bud event at Snookers, both of the top two players were ranked a level under what they should be. Everyone I talked to knew that, except for some reason the guy handing out the handicaps and the players that allowed themselves to be put into a rank when they knew they were too high to be there.
The chart that was posted about the BU ratings mapped all the various ratings very well I think. If you go by that, there are no issues. It all maps nicely to how people play, no matter where they go.
A 600 Fargo is an A-, is a 7 in APA 9 Ball, they can run out so many balls and play safes like an A- no matter if they are at home or at the US Open or some random weekly tournament. They don't all of a sudden forget how to shoot because they went from CA to AZ and are now a B. If a state has many strong players, that does not make an A a B there, it just makes those players A+ or AA players, and the A going there is still an A. A Corvette will still go 180, even if it's next to a Bugatti. Just because there is someone better, does not mean your skill drops.
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I think you'd change your mind if you got out a little more. I like the way New England defines their letter rankings, I really do. But I can tell you for certain that your idea of a AA player is different than a AA player in Colorado. And their idea of a AA player is different than that in Northern California. It's not as hard and fast as you may think it is.
Also, there is nothing wrong with your definitions. They work just fine. But they are not universal.