Fast Eddies's Case in the hustler.
- Thread starter tduncan
- Start date
Actually some people think that the cases were made by a famous maker of fly fishing rod and shotgun cases. I believe at one time AE Schmidt said that they did not produce the cases.
I personally believe that the cases were not made in the USA and that they are cheap imports. I say this for three reasons.
1. The tooling is sloppy and appears to be machine stamped (embossed)
2. The construction is consistent with the way Taiwanese/Chinese cases were made with thin leather over cardboard. (this construction continues to this day for similar style cases)
3. I have one where the bottom came off and inside was a Made in China sticker. That sticker could have gotten there from a cue but somehow I just got the feeling that it was on the case at some point.
Now, there could have been cases which were made in the USA first in this style and then copies made overseas. I don't know.
I have a very large version of this case. It's large enough to hold about 8 cues. I don't know what it was originally for. It's similar to this one in size and shape and construction
http://pages.antiquesandarts.com/5002/PictPage/1922586124.html
Mine is nearly identical to Fast Eddie's case except for the size.
I personally believe that the cases were not made in the USA and that they are cheap imports. I say this for three reasons.
1. The tooling is sloppy and appears to be machine stamped (embossed)
2. The construction is consistent with the way Taiwanese/Chinese cases were made with thin leather over cardboard. (this construction continues to this day for similar style cases)
3. I have one where the bottom came off and inside was a Made in China sticker. That sticker could have gotten there from a cue but somehow I just got the feeling that it was on the case at some point.
Now, there could have been cases which were made in the USA first in this style and then copies made overseas. I don't know.
I have a very large version of this case. It's large enough to hold about 8 cues. I don't know what it was originally for. It's similar to this one in size and shape and construction
http://pages.antiquesandarts.com/5002/PictPage/1922586124.html
Mine is nearly identical to Fast Eddie's case except for the size.
With all due respect to a guy who has probably made more cases
than I have spot shots - you can't be serious - made in china?
The case is in the 1949 Brunswick catalog, is there any chance
Brunswick was subcontracting to China in 1949?
The cheap construction you describe didn't happen untill the 70s, when
I am sure they were made in Asia somewhere. But that case was a mere
shadow of what Brunswick made, or at least sold, untill the early 70s.
I have never seen an actual 'Fast Eddie' case, but I do own 2 of the
similar style, plain black leather ones. And they definitely "ain't" thin
leather over cardboard.
They appear to be the same leather used to wrap the Willie Hoppe Pro
cues. Two layers glued up with a 'stiffener' in between. Absolutely
a high quality item - tho admitedly dated.
I realize you know your cases, I just don't think you know this one.
Dale<who, it would seem, cares way too much about the 'Lord Brunswick'>
Well like I said I gave my reasons. But as far as things being made "overseas" in 1949 you would probably be surprised to know the amount of goods that were being imported much farther back than that.
In fact in Brunswick catalogs from the 20s they list certain cue models as "import" cues.
I gave my observation after studying the two I have here as well as all the pictures I can find.
I don't know about the cases in 70's from Brunswick. I don't know the dates on these cases, who actually made them or what. Neither does anyone else apparently.
Funnily enough most high quality leather cases that were made in America from the 1800's on usually had some kind of maker's mark on them, similar to what you see here - http://www.vintagegunleather.com/company-marks/marks-1.html
But these cases don't. Why is that?
No where that I have seen them for sale has anyone been able to identify them as to the exact origin. So I am pretty confident that most of the ones you see are early examples of design theft. I am sure that some company in the USA probably did make some high quality ones tooled like as seen on the Fast Eddie case originally. But I think that Brunswick or someone else took it upon themselves to have it copied and that the copies are not really that great.
I have just uploaded my collection of Brunswick case pictures. I need to add one that I recently received which is a butterfly case.
http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=11411
Like I said this is just my opinion and observation based on the cases I own and the ones I have seen in person as well as from studying these pictures. I don't really care one way or the other EXCEPT to say that I don't think that JUST BECAUSE a case is "old" means that it was better made than cases today. For some cases it's true and for others it's not true.
John have you thought about making some cases in this style. I think they look really nice and I am sure you could improve upon it as you do everything else. :smile:
I have thought about it and I have a few half-built test pieces. Just don't have a lot of time with all the orders we have.
Have you heard the one about assuming?
None of this has much to do with imported cues in the 20s, nor the fact
that America has been importing goods since the days of the clipper ships.
The fact is, cheap Asian imports didn't hit the billiard biz 'till after the boom
caused by "The Hustler", and, there was a time when anything you
bought from Brunswick was of good, or better, quality.
It might help put things into perspective, for our younger viewers out there
to explain that in the era of the late 50s<just beore Eddie and Fats>
'jointed' cues, as they were called in those days were VERY rare, and cases
of any kind, considerably more rare. Both were thought of only
as functional items - not something you would spend much money on.
Anyone who was less than a world beater, would aspire at most to
a Willie Hoppe, which cost about $18 retail - they were only $25 when
Brunswick ceased production in the late 60s. All this adds up to the fact
you didn't expect your cue case to be a fashion statement back then.
Dale<who strongly suspects there were fewer 2 piece cues in 1960 than
there are guys making 2 piece cues in 2011>
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I suppose then that you never heard of Sampio cues from Portugal? And Mezz cues was making two piece carom cues in the 40s. Of course Potugal is not Asia but in fact two piece cues were being imported from there well before the Hustler came out.
Brunswick 1908 catalog - page 47 Cue Cases and Cue Bags for Jointed Cues.
Brunswick Catalog 1949 Willie Hoppe Jointed Cues and Leather cases.
Harvey Martin was making leather cases for two piece cues in the 50s at least.
Plus I forgot to mention that I owned a Brunswick cue from the 20s with a brass joint and marquetry inlays.
The fact is that "cheap" imports were an issue at least as far back as 1908 because Brunswick made a point to advertise against them in that year's catalog. As well advertisements in billiard magazines in the 20s also made mention that the brands advertised were not to be confused with low quality imports.
Now again, I am NOT saying that the cases you revere are "imports". I am saying that this is my IMPRESSION based on my experience with them and my studies of old cases in general.
If you have some ACTUAL knowledge other than your own assumptions or feelings or generalizations I'd be happy to hear it because I am always looking to learn and get the facts.
You just can't help yourself can you?
Why do you interpret every statement that isn't phrased exactly the
way you want it said, to be an attack?
One minor point of "actual knowledge" - Sapios certainly were not
"cheap" imports - the owner of the room I grew up in had the
top of the line model - from AE Schmidt. It cost more than a Rambow.
Once again, you could have contributed instead of launching into yet
another JB Infomercial.
Dale
I did contribute from the beginning of the thread. The cues from Portugal were called Sampaio (my spelling of them was also wrong). They were "inexpensive" imports, Don Shimel of J&S Sales was the second generation importer and he explained them to me over lunch one year. Whether they were sold cheaply in the USA or not is another story.
And yes, I interpret something as an attack when it's phrased that way. I offered you my observations based on my study of these cases. That's not enough for you to back off a little and instead you start your next to last response with 'you know what happens when you assume?'
THIS discussion is about the case used in the Hustler. There are only a few of us on the board who have studied them with any type of effort. You might be one of them. I study them as relates to their actual CONSTRUCTION and workmanship before I care about their actual birthplace.
I don't care if they came from St. Louis, New York, or Timbuktu. I am interested in how they were constructed.
And once again because you have forgotten what I said a few posts ago, I consider the ones I have seen to be of "inferior" quality BASED on my observations of the ACTUAL cases. Now as I said there probably were versions of these cases which were made with high quality. In fact I am pretty certain based on my research that there were "original" versions of this case made for flyrods and shotguns which were made in the USA by reputable craftsmen.
I do NOT think that ANY of the Brunswick/AE Schmidt cases I have seen fit into that category. I think that those cases were made in a factory environment, either in the USA or elsewhere with no particular attention paid to making them high quality. I think that they are cheaply made copies of similar cases.
Sorry if that OPINION bursts your bubble and seems to devalue the cases you own. I wouldn't hold that opinion if I didn't STUDY the cases we are talking about from a cue case maker's perspective.
It's not about an "infomercial" you made some statements that are assumptive at best with no facts to back them up. As you can see as early as 1908 Brunswick was selling two-piece cues and leather cases to go with them. They were selling these "Hustler" cases well before the movie came out. You have no clue who made them or what country they were made in. Neither do I.
I just don't look at cue cases with any sort of romantic selective memory. I look at how they were actually built and go from there.
Correction to my information about Sampaio cues. They were introduced to the USA in 1962 by Ben Shimel of J&S Sales according to my Blue Book. Sampaio began making cues in 1880.
J-S Sales imported up to 60,000 cues annually according to the article.
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Also in the Blue Book are examples of Brunswick "jointed" cues from as far back as 1914
Which would imply that there were also cases for those cues........
J-S Sales imported up to 60,000 cues annually according to the article.
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Also in the Blue Book are examples of Brunswick "jointed" cues from as far back as 1914
Which would imply that there were also cases for those cues........
It's pretty close to that Louis Crillon 1951 Case shown.
I have the AE Schmidt catalog from 1957 - it's just a poor one color print job - but the the Schmidt "Classic Cue case" (sold for $20.35) looks just like the Bill Cole case shown without a name badge and possibly without some of the tooling.
So it looks like it an earlier AE Schmidt case they used, but it defintely looks like AE Schmidt to me.
Chris
I just noticed, in my 1952 catalog, the deluxe Brunswick case also has the lines in it.
Look closely at the "expert leather" case picture in the link below (Click on it to blow it up) and you will faintly see the lines.
Schmelke or Brunswick? Who knows...
http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/Brunswick_1952_page_13.jpg
Look closely at the "expert leather" case picture in the link below (Click on it to blow it up) and you will faintly see the lines.
Schmelke or Brunswick? Who knows...
http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/Brunswick_1952_page_13.jpg
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Chris this is the case in question, and they were also made in the USA. It says that they were made from Californian Cowhide, it also says that the cases have a metal tag name plate just like in the photo's, all this information is written below the photo's in your scan.
I will also add for those who care, yes Brunswick did import some early cues around the turn of the century, these cues were imported from Germany, England, and France. In fact during that time Billiards products were being produced under the Brunswick name in France and these facilities were owned by Brunswick!!:smile:
Great post Chris.
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There is no indication that the cases are made in the USA. Some of my cases are made with leather from America and some with leather from Brazil among other places.
Regardless of where the cases were made though every example I have ever seen in person, including the one in my shop was sloppily made in my opinion. Which is why my opinion is that these cases should be considered "knockoffs" of cases which were made for flyrods or guns by reputable leather shops which put their own maker's mark on the case that they made.
Notice I don't say that they are poorly constructed, although I disagree with some of the construction choices. I think that the construction is ok for the time period and it is my opinion again that these cases are probably inferior in construction when it comes to certain aspects.
I have a shotgun case which is made in this style and I am sure it was not made by the dame company that made the Brunswick cases. the design has many similarities but the quality of the work is different with my shotgun case being better. My shotgun case does have some sort of stamped numbers on it but no maker's mark. So it's still a mystery. The tooling pattern is very similar but the one on the shotgun case is neater than the stamping on the Brunswick case I have.
Maybe someone could email Brunswick and try to get some history of these cases if they were willing to part with it.
John the ones I have seen that were advertised in the earlier Brunswick catalogs from the Mid-1950's back, were made very nice, the stitching was good and well done and the leather was thick, and this is exactly how you identify the earlier Brunswick cases from the Crap made later. The problem I see is that the standard design was carried into the 1960's when the quality began to suffer, those that were Leather at all were flimsy on a cardboard frame. Finally toward the end of the 1960's there was no Leather in cases at all just a cheap vinyl over Cardboard.
I think that since more of the Cheap (Most Likely) imports have survived because they are not as old, many people mistake these cases for higher quality cases that were made by Brunswick in the past.
I have most of Brunswick's Catalogs from 1915 to date and I also have some that are older.
In closing the Brunswick company of today is no help, much of their documentation either was thrown away or lost. This is a major problem when trying to identify Brunswick cues and cases from the 1950's back.
Based upon research I have done on this subject.
Ok. Well I think that we know about as much as we can for the moment.
Thank you for the information.