Fear of Feel

Colin Colenso said:
That just blew 10 years of practicing BHE out of the water :D Unless the cut angle you were going for was about 4 degrees or you are pivoting from way shorter than your cue's pivot point, or you're swerving the shot, or... you're intuitively adjusting your bridge during the pivot.

Colin
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What happened when you set up shots that were between 5 - 75 degrees, did you make them? Did you miss them? Did you even try them?
What were the results when you set up from an inside position on the CB and pivoted back to center? Just asking.
 
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Mikjary said:
This is interesting to me. As an aside, I do something like this already on shots less than 5 degrees. When the shot is almost straight in and I need to do more than TOI with the cue ball, I pivot from center a half tip to outside and cinch balls. I create angles fairly well with it, too. :thumbup:

I'll try it out tonight.

Best,
Mike
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Absolutely the way to go on those small angle cuts especially when the balls are close or within a few feet from each other. And the CB can also be deflected to the same spot on the OB with TOI but does have a different action after impact.

You're a good player and student of the game who is willing to try everything. This should be a piece of cake for you to pick up. Within 3-6 weeks of regular practice you'll be able to pocket any shot on the able from up close to table length.

How do I compare it to CTE? I think CTE is more deadly and more consistent if you get proficient with it. But imo, this stick aiming method with pivot to 3 points will blow anything else off when you get comfortable and practiced with it. It's simple to use and learn.

Shane doesn't do it exactly this way but he does use a stick (ferrule) aiming system and he can play a little. :D
 
SpiderWebComm said:
What happened when you set up shots that were between 5 - 75 degrees, did you make them? Did you miss them? Did you even try them?
What were the results when you set up from an inside position on the CB and pivoted back to center? Just asking.
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I didn't care to play the other 2 shots as I've tried that kind of offset pivot aiming for angle creations thousands of times, it's a very old angle creation methodology and there are no tricks to it other than the natural tendency to intuitively adjust such that it seems stronger than what it is.

But on the CCB to COB alignment, as you suggested, followed by 1/2 tip to OE of pivot, are you claiming this works for 5 degrees and more of cut?

I just got off the table after 5 hours of practice btw.

And I've played the align CCB to OB then pivot with 1/2 tip OE about 20,000 times at least I'm guessing, as I'm a mad BHE enthusiast and a 1/2 tip OE equates to gearing outside english for about a 1/2 ball cut, using the 40% formula.

It works really well, and in those 20,000 attempts, I've never seen anything happen like you describe, so maybe you should go to the table and actually try what you recommend on some 20 degree cuts with normal bridge length and no bridge movement, as you are prone to do, as observed in the past in your videos.

Your claim, so defend and/or explain it, instead of attacking my lack of practice.

You have offered a suggestion that discredits the theory of BHE pretty much, so it's you're responsibility to explain it, or withdraw it.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
I didn't care to play the other 2 shots as I've tried that kind of offset pivot aiming for angle creations thousands of times, it's a very old angle creation methodology and there are no tricks to it other than the natural tendency to intuitively adjust such that it seems stronger than what it is.

But on the CCB to COB alignment, as you suggested, followed by 1/2 tip to OE of pivot, are you claiming this works for 5 degrees and more of cut?

I just got off the table after 5 hours of practice btw.

And I've played the align CCB to OB then pivot with 1/2 tip OE about 20,000 times at least I'm guessing, as I'm a mad BHE enthusiast and a 1/2 tip OE equates to gearing outside english for about a 1/2 ball cut, using the 40% formula.

It works really well, and in those 20,000 attempts, I've never seen anything happen like you describe, so maybe you should go to the table and actually try what you recommend on some 20 degree cuts with normal bridge length and no bridge movement, as you are prone to do, as observed in the past in your videos.

Your claim, so defend and/or explain it, instead of attacking my lack of practice.

You have offered a suggestion that discredits the theory of BHE pretty much, so it's you're responsibility to explain it, or withdraw it.

Colin
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Quit getting your panties in a wad, I wasn't attacking or belittling you. All I wanted to know is your results.

I've been on the table doing it for years. On greater cut angles aim center to center and pivot ONE FULL TIP to OE. !/2 tip pivot from inside to center works fine but go full tip on the outside pivot. If it doesn't work for whatever reason since I can't see what you're doing, maybe you should aim center CB to halfway between center and edge on the OB instead of center and then pivot.

I don't know why you missed so many. Works for me and many others. Do you have a small tip whereby 1/2 tip of yours is about 1/4 of mine? I use a 13 mm tip. Maybe you have a very low deflection shaft compared to what I use. If it's neither of those reasons, abort using it forever. That's a real simple solution, isn't it?
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
Quit getting your panties in a wad, I wasn't attacking or belittling you. All I wanted to know is your results.

I've been on the table doing it for years. On greater cut angles aim center to center and pivot ONE FULL TIP to OE. !/2 tip pivot from inside to center works fine but go full tip on the outside pivot. If it doesn't work for whatever reason since I can't see what you're doing, maybe you should aim center CB to halfway between center and edge on the OB instead of center and then pivot.

I don't know why you missed so many. Works for me and many others. Do you have a small tip whereby 1/2 tip of yours is about 1/4 of mine? I use a 13 mm tip. Maybe you have a very low deflection shaft compared to what I use. If it's neither of those reasons, abort using it forever. That's a real simple solution, isn't it?
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Panties in a wad... LOL. I change them once a week to avoid wadding!

My current tip is approx 12mm, with pivot point 12 inches, which is medium deflection. I usually bridge at 12 inches. Most shots I've seen you play you seem to have a longer bridge than that, which makes it harder to explain how you can make such shots as explained.

For 1 tip, or even maximum tip offset with a fixed pivot, if bridging from the pivot point, the contact remains at the same position on the OB.

Colin

Edit: FWIW, years ago I spent months on developing a system for using align to IE offset for creating angles, pivoting to CCB as you describe, taking into account distance between CB and OB and measuring the cut angle. That's why I don't need to redo something I've done thousands of times. I know it's strengths and weaknesses.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Panties in a wad... LOL. I change them once a week to avoid wadding!

My current tip is approx 12mm, with pivot point 12 inches, which is medium deflection. I usually bridge at 12 inches. Most shots I've seen you play you seem to have a longer bridge than that, which makes it harder to explain how you can make such shots as explained.

For 1 tip, or even maximum tip offset with a fixed pivot, if bridging from the pivot point, the contact remains at the same position on the OB.

Colin
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You could very well have to go more than 1/2 tip OE offset due to the smaller tip.
That would be an interesting experiment and good to find out.

What happens when you change your bridge length or didn't you try doing it?

I don't know what to tell you otherwise. Works great for me and has for years as well as many other players who got the same lesson from Hal or me.

How about the Coriolis force difference between the northern and southern hemispheres? :thumbup:

Edit to your edit: I'm not touting this as the ultimate aiming system but it's a damn good one. You're right, it does have it's strengths and weaknesses with far more strengths than weaknesses especially when compared to other aiming systems. Or, could be it's just what we get really proficient at that makes it strong.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
You could very well have to go more than 1/2 tip OE offset due to the smaller tip.
That would be an interesting experiment and good to find out.

What happens when you change your bridge length or didn't you try doing it?

I don't know what to tell you otherwise. Works great for me and has for years as well as many other players who got the same lesson from Hal or me.

How about the Coriolis force difference between the northern and southern hemispheres? :thumbup:

Edit to your edit: I'm not touting this as the ultimate aiming system but it's a damn good one. You're right, it does have it's strengths and weaknesses with far more strengths than weaknesses especially when compared to other aiming systems. Or, could be it's just what we get really proficient at that makes it strong.
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When playing BHE Dave, maybe 10-15% of my shots I need to shoot with a bridge length longer or shorter than my pivot point due to either rail position or intervening balls, so I'm very aware of the effects of changing my bridge length.

Guessing here, but I'd estimate your effective pivot point for a 13mm cue is no more than 10 inches for medium to firm shots over say 2 to 3 foot of travel from CB to OB. If you're bridging at 14 inches, if you use a fixed pivot, you'd actually squirt the CB in the opposite direction of the OE. If you bridged at 7 or 8 inches, which is very short if you try this, you would move the CB to the side of the OE being applied.

Colin

Edit: Big fan of Coriolis, but turns out the waterspout theory is an urban legend.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
DIRECTIONS: Place an OB dead center in the side pocket with the front of the ball accurately measured at 8" from the pocket edge. It should be marked off to the side with a piece of tape or notebook reinforcement because you'll be moving the CB to multiple spots.

Place the back of the CB centered 10" away from the 1st diamond at the other side pocket for a right cut shot. As you align the CB with the OB, straight in should look like it will hit the tip of the pocket. Address the CB with 1/2 tip of INSIDE English from center and the tip of your cue aimed at the CENTER of the OB. Then PIVOT back to the center of the CB and take the shot. It should go in.

Set the OB back to the same preset spot. Move the CB one more diamond away from the side pocket toward the corner pocket to increase the angle with the same 10" away. Address the CB the same way as above with inside offset aiming to center OB and then pivot back to center and take the shot. Should also go in even though it was the same aim point to center of OB and pivot to center.

So the question is, WHY do these different angled shots all go in with the same starting offset, pivoting back to center, aiming at the CENTER of the OB?
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You really don't know?

Do you at least realize that you get exactly the same cut angle both times? And moving the CB 15 degrees simply changes the OB's path by 15 degrees?

What does that tell you? It tells me that the pocket is simply wide enough and the OB close enough to it to create a 15-degree "pocket slop" margin of error (about 3 inches from that distance) - or you're "fudging" your aim subconsciously.

More "system magic"...

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
You really don't know?

Do you at least realize that you get exactly the same cut angle both times? And moving the CB 15 degrees simply changes the OB's path by 15 degrees?

What does that tell you? It tells me that the pocket is simply wide enough and the OB close enough to it to create a 15-degree "pocket slop" margin of error (about 3 inches from that distance) - or you're "fudging" your aim subconsciously.

More "system magic"...

pj
chgo
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Exact kind of post I expected from you. Happy to see you punched in the time clock and are now fast at work on the job.

http://scottberkun.com/essays/40-why-smart-people-defend-bad-ideas/

"The problem with smart people is that they like to be right and sometimes will defend ideas to the death rather than admit they’re wrong. This is bad. Worse, if they got away with it when they were young (say, because they were smarter than their parents, their friends, and their parent’s friends) they’ve probably built an ego around being right, and will therefore defend their perfect record of invented righteousness to the death. Smart people often fall into the trap of preferring to be right even if it’s based in delusion, or results in them, or their loved ones, becoming miserable. (Somewhere in your town there is a row of graves at the cemetery, called smartypants lane, filled with people who were buried at poorly attended funerals, whose headstones say “Well, at least I was right.”)
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You really don't know?

Do you at least realize that you get exactly the same cut angle both times? And moving the CB 15 degrees simply changes the OB's path by 15 degrees?

What does that tell you? It tells me that the pocket is simply wide enough and the OB close enough to it to create a 15-degree "pocket slop" margin of error (about 3 inches from that distance) - or you're "fudging" your aim subconsciously.

More "system magic"...

pj
chgo
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You rest assure that real CTE is EXACTLY as prescribed......when you speak about more system magic......you can get your keyboard dig in about CTE but you will Never successfully stand up to me in aface to face CTE debate at a table.

Stan Shuffett
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So you really don't know...

Wow.

pj
chgo
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I know what you do for aiming. WOW! And you have the nerve to jump on Stan or anybody else? LOL, LOL.

Pat Johnson's Aiming System:


"I initially line up with my stick pointing CB center to ghost ball center, but I've never actually aimed (got to the final alignment) using any method but contact point-to-contact point "feel" learned through practice and memorization (aided by conscious comparison of where I'm pointing my stick)."

You do know the following, correct?

Ghost ball Center - Visual Subjectivity Ghost ball doesn't exist nor the GB center.

Contact point to contact point - OB contact point easy to identify and see - Visual Objectivity.

CB contact point - impossible to see on front of CB, guesswork - Visual Subjectivity

Stick Aiming - what part of stick? Aiming stick to WHAT? - Visual Subjectivity

Feel - more guesswork and last second cue manipulation but absolutely required
to attempt bringing all the previous visual subjectivity together. Visual Subjectivity.

When I first read this confession of yours I thought it was a joke! I then read it two more times and my initial impression was correct...it is a joke! LOL
 
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stan shuffett said:
You rest assure that real CTE is EXACTLY as prescribed......when you speak about more system magic......you can get your keyboard dig in about CTE but you will Never successfully stand up to me in aface to face CTE debate at a table.

Stan Shuffett
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Back in your box, Stan. Spidey said this isn't CTE.

We'll let you know when it's time to be outraged again...

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Back in your box, Stan. Spidey said this isn't CTE.

We'll let you know when it's time to be outraged again...

pj
chgo
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More system magic........is a clear dig at what I teach.

If you want to debate me, then be man enough to do it face to face at a table with cue inhand.

Otherwise...get rid of your digs......dig it?

Stan Shuffett
 
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