Filipino Dominance in Pool

[Jersey]

Question???

One thing I wonder is, what is American Pool going to do to counter this foriegn invasion?...I agree with most of what has been posted so far regarding Philippino / Asian dominance...socio-economics, a culture ok with gambling, greater understanding of the games dynamics etc...but, what are we the US to do to respond?...is Pool going to be something that we give to the rest of the World, only to be Dominated out of National/International Competition???...Do we have as strong a mechanism in place to have players in 'the pipe' as these other Nations do?...or is who's out there now for the US our last stand???

 

[sjm]

Point is.. "Do the posters on this thread who believe that a couple of dozen asian players are ALL DOMINANT in billiards THINK that the players I named and many others should just throw in the towel?"

Another question- Should other countries young players drop out of school and follow the path of many Philippino players or should we buy a pool table for every school and make PE teachers BCA certified instructors to keep up with the Tiawanese? From some of the posts this seems to be the rest of the worlds only hope to be competitive.

Terry< just like to know so I can either toss my cue or expect higher school taxes.

All it means is that the Asians have an advantage because the breeding it takes to become a great player is more available in Asia than elsewhere. In some ways, this is analogous to the advantage enjoyed by children of the wealthy, who can attend top private schools and are, on average, more likely to earn spots at the top universities.

Telling a non-Asian to give up the dream of being one of pool superstars would make no more sense than telling a child in a middle class or poor neighborhood to give up his/her dream of going to Harvard. There are countless examples of kids that made it there despite the fact that the path traveled was a rigourous one.

Simlarly, there will be countless success stories in pool among those not having the calculated advantages that Asians enjoy simply because pool is so deeply embedded in their cultures.

Gremlin often posted about the enormous developmental advantages enjoyed by aspiring young pool players in Asia, and made a very convincing case that other nations have a lot of catching up to do if they wish to see their youth succeed comparably over the glorious green felt.

 

[kollegedave]

Jam,

I think gambling may have something to do with it. However, I read some article on Efren--I think it was in the Atlantic Monthly sometime last year-- where the article said that Efren started playing pool when he was 8 standing on a milk crate to reach the table. One common thing with many great players is that they start out young...really young. It will be interesting to see what our 9 yr.old US champ (is Landon his name?) does later on in his career. It seems to me that the younger people start, the better they are. My 0.02.

kollegedave

That being said:

The Philippines has been a poor 3rd world country for a while. Gambling is as part of the culture as eating adobo. That is to say that if anyone had a hint of skills that could make money, a Filipino will take to it as if his life were dependent on it. That's because, in essence, the gambling mentality for much of the PHilippines is (was?) about being able to live.

American pool was introduced to the Philippines long before almost any other third world country. That's the biggest reason why we've seen more great Filipino players compared to other third world countries. As we have seen, other countries in the Southeast have been generating world champions in the past decade.

As a money and living opportunity, the Filipinos have taken to pool gambling full bore and have never looked back. Those that could not sustain a living have gone to other things like Mah Jong, cock fighting, etc. (that's just a joke, of course). That is to say, of course there are less-than-world-class Filipino players (who all have played 15-ball rotation on crappy equipment). The cream rises to the top, and we as pool fans get to enjoy the cream.

I honestly believe that if the Philippines were part of the UK from the early 1900's instead of part of the USA, then the World's Greatest Snooker Player would have been a Filipino with the name "Reyes."

So, gambling and the pursuit of a life via gambling is different than in the US. We in the US as a whole are not a gambling nation. Gambling isn't legal in most states. In the Philippines, gambling at anything is the norm. The Philippines is one of the best cases that excellence can be greatly affected by socio-economics rather than physical attributes alone.

Fred[/QUOTE]

 

[RED NAXELA]

[QUOTE=Heckler]...however I think the greatest cueists in the world are all british (English, Scotish, Welsh and Irish) its just a shame they all played snooker....

...If Davis can do that what could a Hendry, O'Sullivan or any other top snooker player in his prime do if they learned the game properly????

Answer = WIN WIN WIN

Bring them on, Heck, bring them all on.

Talk is bloody cheap...

 

[rackmsuckr]

Whatever happened to Leonardo Andam and Rodolfo Luat? I met both of them several years ago.

 

[Cornerman]

Point is.. "Do the posters on this thread who believe that a couple of dozen asian players are ALL DOMINANT in billiards THINK that the players I named and many others should just throw in the towel?"

Nobody suggested this.

Another question- Should other countries young players drop out of school and follow the path of many Philippino players or should we buy a pool table for every school and make PE teachers BCA certified instructors to keep up with the Tiawanese? .

I'm not sure why your post seems so over-the-top. The Europeans and the Taiwanese have development programs for pool and billiards. We do not. The U.S. has programs for our youth in most major sports, Olympic and otherwise, but we do not for pool. With that in mind... please restate your point.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Jam,

I think gambling may have something to do with it. However, I read some article on Efren--I think it was in the Atlantic Monthly sometime last year-- where the article said that Efren started playing pool when he was 8 standing on a milk crate to reach the table.

He started gambling at 9. That's probably the same article.

Fred

 

[jsp]

Yes. Born in Davao City because that's the hospital my parents trusted. My parents are Ilocano, but I and my sisters only spoke English and Cebuano. So, when we moved to the States, I only spoke English and lost much of my culture with the loss of the language.

Fred <~~~ that's why

Thanks for the scoop Fred. My parents are both from the Philippines but met and married in Chicago. My mom is from Batangas and my dad from Bulacan. Unfortunately and sadly, like most Filipino-Americans, they brought my brothers and me up speaking only English, and thus our Tagalog comprehension is pathetic. However, I try to keep the culture in tact with the most important thing...FOOD! I love all the hardcore cooking like dinuguan, kare kare, and sinigang, but I can't stomach balut. I guess i'm not that hardcore.

BTW, my wife is Ilocana...well, at least her parents are. But like me, she was born in the states as well (Boston).

 

[buddha162]

All it means is that the Asians have an advantage because the breeding it takes to become a great player is more available in Asia than elsewhere. In some ways, this is analogous to the advantage enjoyed by children of the wealthy, who can attend top private schools and are, on average, more likely to earn spots at the top universities.

Telling a non-Asian to give up the dream of being one of pool superstars would make no more sense than telling a child in a middle class or poor neighborhood to give up his/her dream of going to Harvard. There are countless examples of kids that made it there despite the fact that the path traveled was a rigourous one.

Simlarly, there will be countless success stories in pool among those not having the calculated advantages that Asians enjoy simply because pool is so deeply embedded in their cultures.

Gremlin often posted about the enormous developmental advantages enjoyed by aspiring young pool players in Asia, and made a very convincing case that other nations have a lot of catching up to do if they wish to see their youth succeed comparably over the glorious green felt.

sjm,

He's basically making a hyperbolic point, i.e. "I guess everyone else should just throw in the towel!", etc, etc. In other words, he doesn't agree that Asians are as dominant as they obviously are, atm. Or he believes that the dominance is a fluke, is short-lived, and is exaggerated. But he won't come out and just say that, or to contribute in any substantive way.

-Roger

 

[vagabond]

a reminder

OK, here's my opinion... one observation i have why Asians do well in pool (and other sports like bowling and badminton), except for the gambling and economic factor, is because this kinds of sports don't need size to excel.... not like basketball where you need to be tall to recognized. the only asian player i know who excel in this sport is Yao Ming who is 9ft tall.. (ok, im exaggerating)... they'd rather play something that they know they have a chance to excel than play a very popular sport which has a little succes rate. that's just my own opinion..

howdy,
In 1953 Philippine`s Basket Ball team was placed THIRD in the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

 

[jsp]

Why do the Asians play so well? I'll give my slant on it, with advance apologies for posting things that may be unpopular as a means of arriving at the truth.

Hi SJM. Great post, but I don't think it's accurate or appropriate to lump and generalize the Filipinos and Taiwanese into one single group ("Asians"). First off, the Philippines and Taiwan are two totally different countries with vastly different cultures. Many of the Filipinos and Tawainese forum members here can attest to that.

I bring this up because the idiosyncrasies in both country and culture spawn two totally different styles of pool play. I would describe the Filipino style as centering around fluidity, tenacity, and creativity...while the Tawainese style on precision, calculation, and proper fundamentals. I'm not saying that one style is better than the other, but they're nonetheless two contrasting styles of play. We can all agree, however, that both styles have been proven very effective.

1) Better understanding and application of billiard knowledge than Americans and Europeans, which I believe is attributable to the fact that Asians tend to be exposed to billiards early in life.

I can agree with this, but add that the reasoning behind them being exposed to billiards earlier in life may be different for the Filipinos and Taiwanese. For the Filipinos, pool and gambling are a way of life. As Fred mentioned previously, many Filipinos feel the need to gamble to get by in life. I may be mistaken, but I think pool is a relatively new game in Taiwan culture. The Taiwanese have great government-sponsored programs to help the youths learn the game and bring national pride to the country. Just like table-tennis to the Chinese.

Better adherence to the game's percentages through creative defense and two way shots. I believe this is, in part, due to the fact that Asians are very well-schooled in the quantitative disciplines, as is so evident to those like myself having business contact with Asia. The Asians, for my money, show the greatest understanding of pool's percentages among the world's players.

I agree, but I think I would regard the Taiwanese as more calculating while the Filipinos as more creative. I say this because many of the Filipino superstars barely have a grade school education. They probably can't number crunch the percentages in their head, but with their creative abilities they can think of a clever two-rail kick-safety.

3) As they only compete on tight equipment, the pedigree of Asians is stronger when it comes to ball pocketing. In recent years, pool outside of Asia has trended toward easier equipment. It has hurt the pedigree of American pool players. and has helped set the stage for Asian dominance.

The Filipinos did not grow up with much tighter equipment, but with much crappier equipment. That's why I feel the strength of the Filipino game is not in pocketing ability, but in position play. They grew up playing 15-ball rotation in crap cloth, in the humidity of a very tropical country, and with slanted tables (i might be exaggerating a bit on that one). I do agree that pocketing ability is a huge strength for the Taiwanese.

4) Asia has better developmental programs than the rest of the world for junior players. This point has often been raised, with examples, on this forum. As we've seen the last two years, young Asians have dominated the qualifiers for the WPC. In 2005, neither Eberle nor Van Boening was good enough to win any of the ten qualifiers for the WPC, with all ten spots won by Asians. That means the Asian talent pool is very deep!

Maybe other Filipino forum members can help me out with this, but I don't think the Philippines have any developmental programs for the junior players at all...at least I haven't heard of any. However, the Taiwanese (so I have heard) have excellent programs for junior players.

The Asians deserve all the credit in the world for what they have achieved and what they are continuing to achieve. More power to them, I say. Well played, Asia!

Yes, both Taiwan and the Philippines deserve credit. I just hope the Americans and Europeans can keep up. Bring on the British snooker players!

 

[Craig Fales]

Thanks for the scoop Fred. My parents are both from the Philippines but met and married in Chicago. My mom is from Batangas and my dad from Bulacan. Unfortunately and sadly, like most Filipino-Americans, they brought my brothers and me up speaking only English, and thus our Tagalog comprehension is pathetic. However, I try to keep the culture in tact with the most important thing...FOOD! I love all the hardcore cooking like dinuguan, kare kare, and sinigang, but I can't stomach balut. I guess i'm not that hardcore.

BTW, my wife is Ilocana...well, at least her parents are. But like me, she was born in the states as well (Boston).

Describe some of these foods, I'm always open for new foods to try....

EDIT: I don't think the US supports pool because of the "dark image" it has....outsiders view pool as the shady hustler waiting in a smoky pool hall....
________

 

[BlowFish]

Still active.

Whatever happened to Leonardo Andam and Rodolfo Luat? I met both of them several years ago.

Dodong "The Rattle Snake" Andam and Rodolfo "Boy Samson" Luat are still actively playing pool in the Philippines and in Asia.

They where part of Team Philippines at the recently concluded SEA Games.

 

[Heckler]

[QUOTE=Heckler]...however I think the greatest cueists in the world are all british (English, Scotish, Welsh and Irish) its just a shame they all played snooker....

...If Davis can do that what could a Hendry, O'Sullivan or any other top snooker player in his prime do if they learned the game properly????

Answer = WIN WIN WIN

Bring them on, Heck, bring them all on.

Talk is bloody cheap...

If the money is there they will come....you tell me why they would waste their time or reputation on anything less than $300,000 - $500,000??? they get that having a bad year in snooker....and that for winning some comps....

So if you think you can get the players(Or anyone) to put that kinda money up??? then kindly PM me and you may get what you wished for....

Also for you information I know a host of good - very good snooker players (not the very best) who have turned to pool and have done and are still doing exceptionally well at it......

 

[jsp]

Describe some of these foods, I'm always open for new foods to try....

Gladly. Dinuguan is a pork stew made out of pork blood (the cooked blood makes the dish black as night). Kare kare is a dish made of ox-tails whose central ingredient is peanut butter. Sinigang is a sour stew made from tamarind (or guava) with either pork, shrimp, or fish. Balut are well-developed fertilized duck eggs (you've probably seen contestants eating this on Fear Factor).

EDIT: I don't think the US supports pool because of the "dark image" it has....outsiders view pool as the shady hustler waiting in a smoky pool hall....

I agree. The US must change this image of pool in order to spawn talent growth. I wonder if the musical "The Music Man" had something to do it. You know..."Ya got trouble, folks, right here in River City with a capital 'T' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for 'pool'."

 

[BlowFish]

Describe some of these foods, I'm always open for new foods to try....

Balot: How does a week old duck egg boiled in water sound to you? Let me describe it further. The embryo inside is almost complete, with bones, feathers and everything, but still soft and cruchy to munch into. Are you still up for it?

Dinuguan: Think of it as the equivalent of the Sheperds Pie on Europe without the Pie Crust. It's sauce is basically Pigs Blood and the ingredients inside it are diced innards of the pig. Some use diced pork meat instead of the innards. I love dinuguan with the green long chillies on it. yummy.

 

[BlowFish]

Additional info.

JSP, that's a great reply. The only thing I can add is that the Philippines doesn't have any developmental program for pool. It's not even a Physical Education (PE) Class subject that you can select. You have to be well known and really good and then Mr. Puyat will put you under his wings.

As far as education goes, I only know that Marlon Manalo and Parica have a college/university degree under their belt.

Hi SJM. Great post, but I don't think it's accurate or appropriate to lump and generalize the Filipinos and Taiwanese into one single group ("Asians"). First off, the Philippines and Taiwan are two totally different countries with vastly different cultures. Many of the Filipinos and Tawainese forum members here can attest to that.

I bring this up because the idiosyncrasies in both country and culture spawn two totally different styles of pool play. I would describe the Filipino style as centering around fluidity, tenacity, and creativity...while the Tawainese style on precision, calculation, and proper fundamentals. I'm not saying that one style is better than the other, but they're nonetheless two contrasting styles of play. We can all agree, however, that both styles have been proven very effective.


I can agree with this, but add that the reasoning behind them being exposed to billiards earlier in life may be different for the Filipinos and Taiwanese. For the Filipinos, pool and gambling are a way of life. As Fred mentioned previously, many Filipinos feel the need to gamble to get by in life. I may be mistaken, but I think pool is a relatively new game in Taiwan culture. The Taiwanese have great government-sponsored programs to help the youths learn the game and bring national pride to the country. Just like table-tennis to the Chinese.


I agree, but I think I would regard the Taiwanese as more calculating while the Filipinos as more creative. I say this because many of the Filipino superstars barely have a grade school education. They probably can't number crunch the percentages in their head, but with their creative abilities they can think of a clever two-rail kick-safety.


The Filipinos did not grow up with much tighter equipment, but with much crappier equipment. That's why I feel the strength of the Filipino game is not in pocketing ability, but in position play. They grew up playing 15-ball rotation in crap cloth, in the humidity of a very tropical country, and with slanted tables (i might be exaggerating a bit on that one). I do agree that pocketing ability is a huge strength for the Taiwanese.


Maybe other Filipino forum members can help me out with this, but I don't think the Philippines have any developmental programs for the junior players at all...at least I haven't heard of any. However, the Taiwanese (so I have heard) have excellent programs for junior players.


Yes, both Taiwan and the Philippines deserve credit. I just hope the Americans and Europeans can keep up. Bring on the British snooker players!

 

[SplicedPoints]

2005 World Games - No Pinoys participated
CoC - Efren's eyes we're still "poor"

there was a tourney back in 2003/2004 were it was a mosconi cup-like setting between the Philippines and Taiwan... Taiwan's participants were CS Yang, FP Chao, PW Chang, CW Fu, PC Kuo. clearly Taiwan's first stringers against Philippines 2nd to 3rd stringers(by that time) Lining, Gallego, Valle, Orcollo, and Manalo (who was just starting to play 9-ball in tourneys) no Efren , Django or Alex... the Philippines won that event by a BIG, i mean BIG margin.... 12-2(not that sure though).

I guess in an Open, like the US Open, even if the Taiwanese join it, Pinoys are more likely to win it than the Taiwanese, JMHO

I disagree with the last comment. Let's take big international tournaments this year where both Pinoys and Taiwanese players participated in.

WPC 9 ball- Wu
WPC 8 ball- Wu
Philliphines Open- Yang
SM Asian Tour- basically a split
Greentime invitational- Yang

Other tournaments Taiwanese has won, but I am not sure if any Pinoys participated in:
Challenge of Champions- Chao
World Games- Chang

Taiwanese players don't participate in many other international tournaments other than the ones I've listed (except the tournaments in Japan). It is true that Philliphine won the head-to-head contest, but the Taiwanese as a whole has outperformed the Pinoys this year in most other tournaments where both Taiwanese and Pinoys played. Also, the head-to-head contest happened only once; it would be interested to see what would happen the next time. Like the Mosconi cup, both sides will win some, and lose some.

 

[the_eradicator]

howdy,
In 1953 Philippine`s Basket Ball team was placed THIRD in the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

that was back then when pool's not yet popular... and how many times did the basketball team placed in the world championships opposed to how many times the pinoys place in the WPC, US Open 9-ball, DCC, etc...

 

[the_eradicator]

Dodong "The Rattle Snake" Andam and Rodolfo "Boy Samson" Luat are still actively playing pool in the Philippines and in Asia.

They where part of Team Philippines at the recently concluded SEA Games.

Dodong participated in snooker... Boy is not part of team Pilipinas...

Off Topic, sir, hope to see you this sunday for the EPT's tour stop/Christmas party.