Finish Problem
- Thread starter whammo57
- Start date
You may be correct that things under the finish had not completely cured. But it was a week after assembly and final taper that I put on the finish. The bubble just looks like there was a lot of pressure under it. It could be a combination of the epoxy lifting and the low air pressure in the cargo hold of the plane.
Just guessing... it's sanded off and I am refinishing it now.
Kim
Vulcanized fiber can absorb water and will swell....not sure if that is your issue here, but knifemakers have moved away from vulcanized fiber spacers for that reason and are using G-10.
Interesting issue nonetheless.... Larry
I think we have a winner here.
I'll say it again, chuck the fiber paper thicker than .015.
Hi Guys,
I use .090 and .060 fiber or plastic on the wrap groove ends on some of my different style cues. Never any problems with sealing these rings. IMO, this problem obviously appears to be the finish expanding and the ring transition zone may not have been 100% sealed. It could have been just a microscopic pin hole.
If the ambient pressure in the cue was at "X" and the cue was placed in a lower atmospheric environment "-X" then that Delta P across the membrane of the finish could have produced this tenuous area producing the ugly "Snot Bubble". Just 1 psi or 2 differential may be more than enough to overcome the limit of this coating?
Who knows,
Rick
I use .090 and .060 fiber or plastic on the wrap groove ends on some of my different style cues. Never any problems with sealing these rings. IMO, this problem obviously appears to be the finish expanding and the ring transition zone may not have been 100% sealed. It could have been just a microscopic pin hole.
If the ambient pressure in the cue was at "X" and the cue was placed in a lower atmospheric environment "-X" then that Delta P across the membrane of the finish could have produced this tenuous area producing the ugly "Snot Bubble". Just 1 psi or 2 differential may be more than enough to overcome the limit of this coating?
Who knows,
Rick
Last edited:
Good gawd I like how you think....
Obviously a Delta P caused the "bleb".....
How that came about considering the variables of air travel, interactions of adhesives and finish materials, heat, and other possible unknowns is fascinating really.
Whether or not the finish methods in combination with the materials used might have contributed is a good question. The question is complex.
As the user/observer I have to say that the first thing I note is the cue maker is making it right.
You guys can argue it until the cows come home but I don't think many have seen such a thing happen, that pic is dramatic. It is all supposition and theory.
I am glad to see the various views on the matter but it need not degrade into argument. It is an interesting problem and there is probably a bit of truth is each contribution on the problem.
The whole ordeal just goes to show the complexities that are really involved in developing a quality cue.
As an observer, I really dig these threads. Thanks guys! :thumbup:
.........................
Last edited:
Good gawd I like how you think....
Obviously a Delta P caused the "bleb".....
How that came about considering the variables of air travel, interactions of adhesives and finish materials, heat, and other possible unknowns is fascinating really.
Whether or not the finish methods in combination with the materials used might have contributed is a good question. The question is complex.
As the user/observer I have to say that the first thing I note is the cue maker is making it right.
You guys can argue it until the cows come home but I don't think many have seen such a thing happen, that pic is dramatic. It is all supposition and theory.
I am glad to see the various views on the matter but it need not degrade into argument. It is an interesting problem and there is probably a bit of truth is each contribution on the problem.
The whole ordeal just goes to show the complexities that are really involved in developing a quality cue.
As an observer, I really dig these threads. Thanks guys! :thumbup:
Hey Doc,
This "cue patient" is suffering from complications of a "Gas Embolism". :groucho:All of the signs point there. I am sure Kim will get it into the ER STAT.:duck:
Ray Ray Schuler shipped some cues to New York and when they arrived 3 of the A joints were were blown out. The thing to consider is that when the viscous epoxy was placed in the tenon pocket area that slight hydraulic pressure was exerted in all directions within that space and even after the epoxy hardened there was a pre stressed condition within the cues structure.
When there was just a small a drop in atmospheric pressure in the cargo hold, shit the thy fan. :help: Pressure is pressure, the stressed cue don't care if it is hydraulic or pneumatic. If these would have had veneered points there would have been a blow out on the ground but because they were solid forearms, they held back the busting of the cue until they were airborne.
Rick
Last edited:
I have no dog in this race,at all.
My question is more for the guys that have REALLY put their time in here,without disrespecting the OP or anyone else.
If a cuemaker,thru hard-won experience and skills with the tools were 100% satisfied with the quality of the finish,regardless of what was used to finish a particular cue,would you or would you not say something to the customer to the effect of "hey,don't leave it in your car!",even if you warned them ahead of time and they did it anyway?
If you warned the customer,they let it get hot anyway,and they brought it back,do you fix it for free (provided this was a one-time issue),or do you charge the guy for a full refin?
I ask this because even though it was much simpler,I finally had to tell one of my repair customers that he didn't get any more free tips if he kept leaving his cue in the car in 110 degree summers.
He brought me the same shaft 3 times in a year. Two of those times the cue was so warm to the touch when I got it I made him wait overnight for it.
After the 3rd time,I told him from now on tips are regular price. Tommy D.
My question is more for the guys that have REALLY put their time in here,without disrespecting the OP or anyone else.
If a cuemaker,thru hard-won experience and skills with the tools were 100% satisfied with the quality of the finish,regardless of what was used to finish a particular cue,would you or would you not say something to the customer to the effect of "hey,don't leave it in your car!",even if you warned them ahead of time and they did it anyway?
If you warned the customer,they let it get hot anyway,and they brought it back,do you fix it for free (provided this was a one-time issue),or do you charge the guy for a full refin?
I ask this because even though it was much simpler,I finally had to tell one of my repair customers that he didn't get any more free tips if he kept leaving his cue in the car in 110 degree summers.
He brought me the same shaft 3 times in a year. Two of those times the cue was so warm to the touch when I got it I made him wait overnight for it.
After the 3rd time,I told him from now on tips are regular price. Tommy D.
I hear you.... Is there any cue builder that would recommend that a cue be stored in a car in the summer? Would you warranty it if it warped and the finish bubbled?
Obviously. my first thought was mistreatment because the cue is always stored in a car. After looking at and sanding it down, it is a localized adhesion problem. The cause is a mystery but, because I put the finish on it..... I own the problem.
An adhesion problem and a plane ride in the unheated and low pressure cargo hold is most likely what caused it.
My signature is on it. If it comes back, I will refinish the whole cue. If it comes back again, I will make him another cue.
Kim
Outstanding. :thumbup:
Obviously many would not take that stand, and I wouldn't blame them, but the fact that you do screams volumes about what you think when a cue is out there with your name on it.
.
I would have to say 100's of thousands and probably millions of cues are sent by plane every year. Why are there no others with this problem?
Why is it that your epoxy stayed so soft for so long? I believe your problem is that the epoxy wasn't properly mixed before application. When a good epoxy is mixed properly, it gets hard. For a bubble to form like that the epoxy had to stretch a number of times it's thickness. The epoxy, if anything. should have cracked, not stretched.
Dick
hello kim, here's a thought about what may have happened. the problem is along a seam. you have used shellac and epoxy and urethane. what solvent is in your shellac? "IF" there is a small gap along the seam (or if ring is a porous material) the solvent in the shellac may get "wicked" into the cue. epoxies can be thinned with alcohols or similar solvents. it does not prevent it from hardening but can delay it. "IF" this occurred, it may have been hard to notice when prep sanded for the urethane. the urethane is a more pliable finish than epoxy (under normal conditions). so lets say somehow solvent got wicked into the cue seam, it reacts with the epoxy-slowing the cure where it makes contact with the epoxy. the urethane goes over the top of the epoxy. heat is added and flashes the solvent. gas is formed. the slow curing epoxy and the urethane are pliable so it bubbles to accommodate the gases. the heat will also flash the solvent out of the epoxy so it can finally cure, thus leaving you with a strange problem. just something to think about........andy
Hate to Necropost but this whole debate on vulcanized paper and it wicking and absorbing water (swelling) seems to still be raging on. Apparently I am not the only one who likes to soak things in water overnight....Don't mind Mace (he's good people) Original thickness was .030 BTW...
You might find this interesting. Hope this link works....
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201548039598120&set=vb.1091149899&type=2&theater
You might find this interesting. Hope this link works....
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201548039598120&set=vb.1091149899&type=2&theater
Last edited:
Back in the 1990's John Wright bought a cue from me for a customer in Japan. He shipped the cue along with other cues to the customer. He called me a few days later and said the cue arrived with a finish problem. I was using super glue finish at the time. He sent me the cue back and in one spot on the forearm there was this large raised crack in the finish. It was right on top of one of the lines in the turquoise. It looked like it just expanded until it cracked.
I suspect the cabin pressure or the way it was packed or something caused it to swell up and crack there. I refinished it and there was no more problems. I still do not know why that cue did what it did for sure, but I have never had anything like that happen since, and I have shipped a lot of cues on airplanes.
My guess on the cue Kim showed is that the cue got bumped at one time and the finish lifted slightly. Then the cabin pressure or Las Vegas heat caused it to expand. I baked a case of cues at a trade show in Vegas back in the 90's and it was not pretty what happened. The handles warped on almost all of them.
I suspect the cabin pressure or the way it was packed or something caused it to swell up and crack there. I refinished it and there was no more problems. I still do not know why that cue did what it did for sure, but I have never had anything like that happen since, and I have shipped a lot of cues on airplanes.
My guess on the cue Kim showed is that the cue got bumped at one time and the finish lifted slightly. Then the cabin pressure or Las Vegas heat caused it to expand. I baked a case of cues at a trade show in Vegas back in the 90's and it was not pretty what happened. The handles warped on almost all of them.
Last edited:
I can only guess why it happened.... there have been some good ideas here.... I try not to have that happen again. I changed a few methods and haven't seen it again... that's not to say that I haven't made other mistakes along the way.... LOL
I think the important thing is that a cue builder stands behind their work........... finish is the hardest thing to get right... for me any way.... and it's the first thing a customer looks at... so it has to be right...
Kim
Last edited: