Finish Problem

whammo57

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
I customer brought a cue to me with a bubble in the finish. It is the only mark on the cue. It is about 3 months old.

It has a shellac sealer, an epoxy coat, and a waterborne urethane finish. I have never seen anything like this before. I have never had any problems with any cue I have finished.

The bubble is hollow. You can dent it if you press hard.

Take a look at this and tell me what you think. He keeps his cue in his car (against my advice) and he has flown to Vegas with the cue.

Thanks

Kim

P5150177.jpg


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Hi Kim,

Nasty Carbuncle there! That stuff looks rubbery.

That cue may have a case of the bends!

All you can do is sand the butt area and blend a refinish.

Rick
 
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Nice looking cue... ugly bubble!! What is the butt cap made of? It looks like the finish may be lifting from the butt cap along the ring. Perhaps some reaction to the glue???
P5150176.jpg
 
tsp&b said:
Nice looking cue... ugly bubble!! What is the butt cap made of? It looks like the finish may be lifting from the butt cap along the ring. Perhaps some reaction to the glue???
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The butt cap is Juma. The ring is fiber. The bubble is hard enough that you cannot put a fingernail mark in it. Urethane is somewhat flexible but it looks like there was a 1000 lbs of pressure under the finish.



Kim
 
I would have to say that waterborne finish over fast epoxy, may not be
a good combination. Definitely looks like an adhesion problem, and I don't think it will limit it's self to just this area. I'd strip the whole cue. Check with the waterborne manufacturer and see what they think. With best intent, I really suggest you pursue another finish combination.
 
A few questions come to mind. What kind of epoxy? How long did it cure before the finish went over it? Why a shellac sealer AND epoxy coat? What kind of finish, a urethane, acrylic, polyester? Why three different chemicals? If one or all aren't completely cured, the gases from each 'may' interact in a bad way. To be honest, it looks as if the epoxy curing (heat) softened the shellac, and the heat caused separation & expansion between shellac & juma. Juma isn't porous & shellac will not adhere well. Shellac is great for bare wood because it bonds to the fibers. Not so much on plastic.

I agree with Steve. You should consider looking into a different method of finishing. I'd be wary of any cue I finished like that, which has any plastic components. Some lessons cost more than others.
 
whammo57 said:
The butt cap is Juma. The ring is fiber. The bubble is hard enough that you cannot put a fingernail mark in it. Urethane is somewhat flexible but it looks like there was a 1000 lbs of pressure under the finish.



Kim
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I suggest not putting finish on Juma or any of the plastic parts.
If you use plastic rings, chuck them.
 
I agree.

qbilder said:
A few questions come to mind. What kind of epoxy? How long did it cure before the finish went over it? Why a shellac sealer AND epoxy coat? What kind of finish, a urethane, acrylic, polyester? Why three different chemicals? If one or all aren't completely cured, the gases from each 'may' interact in a bad way. To be honest, it looks as if the epoxy curing (heat) softened the shellac, and the heat caused separation & expansion between shellac & juma. Juma isn't porous & shellac will not adhere well. Shellac is great for bare wood because it bonds to the fibers. Not so much on plastic.

I agree with Steve. You should consider looking into a different method of finishing. I'd be wary of any cue I finished like that, which has any plastic components. Some lessons cost more than others.
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What he said!!! :thumbup:
 
whammo57 said:
I use only fiber rings.

I have never heard of anyone that uses Juma that does not put finish on it.

Kim
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Waterborne finish does not like plastic.
Fiber is vulcanized paper I believe.
Anything over .015, I throw away.
If you were using shellac ( de-waxed I hope ) and they get on that paper, it's toast. Use shellac on wood only.
Epoxy on the rest.
Chuck the fiber rings over .015 thick.
You want black? Cut some ebony, zircote or blackwood.
Whites are much tougher, Aegis or Juma.
All those thick fiber rings do is create headache and kill the hit of the cue imo.
 
qbilder said:
A few questions come to mind. What kind of epoxy? How long did it cure before the finish went over it? Why a shellac sealer AND epoxy coat? What kind of finish, a urethane, acrylic, polyester? Why three different chemicals? If one or all aren't completely cured, the gases from each 'may' interact in a bad way. To be honest, it looks as if the epoxy curing (heat) softened the shellac, and the heat caused separation & expansion between shellac & juma. Juma isn't porous & shellac will not adhere well. Shellac is great for bare wood because it bonds to the fibers. Not so much on plastic.

I agree with Steve. You should consider looking into a different method of finishing. I'd be wary of any cue I finished like that, which has any plastic components. Some lessons cost more than others.
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I sand after applying shellac sealer so there will be none left on the Juma.

After sanding it down, it is obvious that the separation was between the Juma and the epoxy and not between the epoxy and the clear coat. I had this once before on a joint cap. It was black and so it showed, so I re sanded and fixed it before clear coating. It wouldn't be that visible on white. It was cold in my shop that day. I attribute the problem to the temperature.

I have never had any problem with the finish on a cue, so I like the method I use and I will continue to use it.

to each his own

Thanks for the response... and suggestions


Kim
 
whammo57 said:
I sand after applying shellac sealer so there will be none left on the Juma.


I have never had any problem with the finish on a cue, so I like the method I use and I will continue to use it.


Kim
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Guess I'm missing something here
 
whammo57 said:
I customer brought a cue to me with a bubble in the finish. It is the only mark on the cue. It is about 3 months old.

It has a shellac sealer, an epoxy coat, and a waterborne urethane finish. I have never seen anything like this before. I have never had any problems with any cue I have finished.

The bubble is hollow. You can dent it if you press hard.

Take a look at this and tell me what you think. He keeps his cue in his car (against my advice) and he has flown to Vegas with the cue.

Thanks

Kim
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Totally not being a smartass here, but are you insinuating that this flaw is your customer's fault because he didn't follow your advice? The cue was in the trunk of his car and flew to vegas, and this is the result? It's all the customer's fault and not your method?
 
cutter said:
Guess I'm missing something here
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Like me, you missed where the thread was intended to bash on the buyer for not following his advice. He wasn't asking for help figuring out what he did wrong with the finish. He was asking for support in blaming his customer for the bad finish. I missed it, too, until I went back to reread the thread.
 
qbilder said:
Like me, you missed where the thread was intended to bash on the buyer for not following his advice. He wasn't asking for help figuring out what he did wrong with the finish. He was asking for support in blaming his customer for the bad finish. I missed it, too, until I went back to reread the thread.
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Where did you get that idea.........????

Read it all before you go bashing me.............

I would do that for you.

Kim
 
Originally Posted by whammo57
I sand after applying shellac sealer so there will be none left on the Juma.


I have never had any problem with the finish on a cue, so I like the method I use and I will continue to use it.



Kim
Guess I'm missing something here

Steve Klein
Voting Member American Cuemakers Association

www.Kleincues.com


I should have said "I have never had any problem with the finish on any other cue".

I am not trying to blame it on the customer even though he leaves his cue in a hot car. I was just trying to determine the cause. It was most likely the epoxy lifting off the Juma butt cap.

I never before have had a bubble, a lift, or a chip at the joint.

If you knew me you wouldn't read between the lines for what "he really means".


Kim
 
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Understand nobody set out to bash on you. Everybody tried helping you, and you got some very good info. But you dismissed it all & claimed you weren't going to change anything because you don't have troubles with the finish. That confused me, and apparently confused Steve as well. That's why I went back to reread all of your posts, and why I concluded that you were passing blame off on the customer. If you were not doing so, then why mention him, his car trunk, his flight to Vegas, or your advice to him? I called a spade a spade & to be honest, felt frustrated because I reached a helping hand out only to realize it wasn't help you were looking for in the first place. If i'm wrong then i'm wrong & I apologize. But can you honestly read everything you've written in this thread & not see why I or anybody else got confused? Or why I said what I said? Again, nobody did anything but offer help & you simply dismissed it.
 
qbilder said:
Understand nobody set out to bash on you. Everybody tried helping you, and you got some very good info. But you dismissed it all & claimed you weren't going to change anything because you don't have troubles with the finish. That confused me, and apparently confused Steve as well. That's why I went back to reread all of your posts, and why I concluded that you were passing blame off on the customer. If you were not doing so, then why mention him, his car trunk, his flight to Vegas, or your advice to him? I called a spade a spade & to be honest, felt frustrated because I reached a helping hand out only to realize it wasn't help you were looking for in the first place. If i'm wrong then i'm wrong & I apologize. But can you honestly read everything you've written in this thread & not see why I or anybody else got confused? Or why I said what I said? Again, nobody did anything but offer help & you simply dismissed it.
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I am taking responsibility and fixing it for the owner, as I should.

Having one problem does not necessarily mean that my method is flawed and I need to change. It simply means that I will need to take more care in the future so this does not happen again.

I don't believe that anyone here is perfect and has never had a problem. How many partially finished cues do you have in your trash box??? I have a few.

I take everyones advice and pick out what I need. I know that you don't do things exactly as everyone else. That doesn't make it wrong. It only makes it your opinion or my opinion on what is best. If it works for you .... I am happy for you.... I am not pissed off because you don't use my methods. I respect that and I expect the same in return. Is that too much to ask?

be cordial ........

Kim
 
My best guess is that since there is a bubble, there must have been gas pressure built up under the finish. This could come from a combination of factors such as a chemical reaction between the numerous finish products you are using, or possibly uncured liquid finish. Either could have been aggrivated by the climate where the cue is currently at now

Judging by the location of the bubble, it appears that it originated on the black fiber ring, or possibly originated at the place where the butt cap meets the fiber ring. Since this is a bubble, not a crack or conventional separation of the (fully cured) clear from the cue, I would tend to think that the fiber ring absorbed some liquid finish and was cleared over too quickly. This could have trapped liquid finish under the final clearcoat, which would explain how solvents generated both pressure and softening of the final top clearcoat which allowed an actual "bubble" to form like this one.

The other possibility I thought of was that whatever adhesive you used to install the buttcap could have leaked out from the spot it meets the fiber ring, therefore causing the same type of result.

One question I would ask would be how long are you waiting between each step of your finishing process? It could be that you have a perfectly good process as long as adequate time passes between each stage. With this cue in particular, it would appear to me that maybe you rushed the entire process and didn't allow enough time for each individual step to fully cure or dry before the next step was started.

I cannot think of any environmental cause that has ever made such a pronounced bubble under the finish. I have seen cues left out in the broiling sunlight, and that has caused cracking and shrinkage of various parts. I can't say I have ever seen this type of bubble related to anything other than the theory I stated above.

Good luck figuring it out
 
If you don't want anybody to criticize how you do things, then don't post a picture of your screw up, explain your method, then ask for help figuring out why it went sour. It has nothing to do with respect.
 
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