Fisher vs Corr: Closer than you think

sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Far too many in this forum try to suggest that Allison Fisher has dominated the tour over the past five years. I think this is as good a time as any to have a closer look.

I'm really growing tired of those in this forum who attempt to use the passing of Allison's dad as an explanation or excuse for her losing the #1 ranking in 2001. Yes, Allison's magnificent, but Corr is so close to the exact same level that she held the number one ranking for about a year and a half. To suggest that Karen's gaining of #1 was somehow devalued by the, admittedly sad, passing of Allison's father is ridiculous. FYI, Karen's dad, sadly, died in the autumn of 2003, and I've yet to hear anyone suggest that it devalues Allison's accomplishment of winning the three WPBA events since then. Obviously, it doesn’t.

Still, talk is cheap, so let’s look at the numbers. Fisher’s domination before Karen’s arrival is indisputable. Karen’s first full year on the WPBA tour was 2000. Let’s have a look at what’s happened since, restricting our review to events that count toward the WPBA rankings. In the thirty one WPBA ranking events that have been played since 1/1/2000, Karen has won 15 of them, Allison 13, and Jeanette, Helena and Gerda one each. In short, Karen’s play has been on a par with that of Fisher over the entire period in which both have been full-time playing members of the WPBA tour.

Performance in non-WPBA events strongly favors Allison. The two events that merit consideration would be the Amway Cup in Asia and the Challenge of Champions at Mohegan Sun. I think that Allison’s excellence in those big purse events justifies reaching the conclusion that she is the best player in women’s pool.

Still, let’s not forget just how close this rivalry is. The numbers say that, since Karen’s arrival on the WPBA scene, the two have dominated the rest, but the case for Fisher’s domination of women’s pro pool since then is a very weak one. Let’s make sure we give both their due.

There has, quite simply, been nothing one-sided about this rivalry.
 
On pure natural skill I actually think Karen has a higher top speed then Allison can manage. Karen is not quite as consistent and does not seem to have the same confidence bordering on cockiness that Allison has though. On their best day Karen is a better player with alot more power in her stroke and a greater ability to string racks. Allison is still stuck in Snooker mode, She is the John Horsfall of womens pool. She is lucky there is now Fransisco, no Efren, no Archer, ect.... of womens pool. Balukas would likely have drilled Allison and Karen both when they crossed the pond if she had never quit.
 
Karen Corr and A.fisher are so close in their skill its hard to say who is better. I do like the fact that karen seems to have more of the "killer mode" in her game. I think someone should make a Color of money style match between the two of them and see who comes out on top. I think this would be a very very good and close match I would have to give a small edge to karen to come out on top
 
King Cueball said:
Karen Corr and A.fisher are so close in their skill its hard to say who is better. I do like the fact that karen seems to have more of the "killer mode" in her game. I think someone should make a Color of money style match between the two of them and see who comes out on top. I think this would be a very very good and close match I would have to give a small edge to karen to come out on top
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I like it. Race to 100 for $100K. Televise it, DVD it, VHS, it, Bcn it, etc. I think you could comercialize it to the point that you could actually make a proffit if it is done right.
 
I have to agree. A race to 121 like Efren and Earl did for some good coin, even 100K would be easy to recoup in videos and gate. This would be a great match between these 2, it is really a toss up who would win, I think you would see alot of big side action.
 
Celtic said:
On pure natural skill I actually think Karen has a higher top speed then Allison can manage. Karen is not quite as consistent and does not seem to have the same confidence bordering on cockiness that Allison has though. On their best day Karen is a better player with alot more power in her stroke and a greater ability to string racks. Allison is still stuck in Snooker mode, She is the John Horsfall of womens pool. She is lucky there is now Fransisco, no Efren, no Archer, ect.... of womens pool. Balukas would likely have drilled Allison and Karen both when they crossed the pond if she had never quit.
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I'm inclined to disagree, but only to a point, because some of what you say makes perfect sense.

I think Allison is the greater talent of the two. When I was in England in 2001, I had a chat with a couple of top snooker pros, to get a sense of what kind of snooker players Fisher and Corr were. What I was told was that Fisher was viewed as the greater talent, with her offensive execution superior to that of Corr, but that Corr was considered better at the defensive and tactical parts of the game. Fisher, they reckoned, played snooker better than all but the Top 60 men, while Corr played better than all but 200 men. To me, everything fit.

In nineball, too, Fisher is better at cuting the offense, but Corr is the better defensive player and strategist, and also has a better break. Your right about the power, Celtic. Though Fisher has more power in her stroke than all but a few open-bridge players (men included) ever, Corr, because she has mastered the loop bridge, has just a little more power in her stroke.

You may be right about Karen's highest speed being higher than Fisher's, but, if so, it's only because Fisher's break stops her from being able to get full value out of her offensive excellence.

You are also right, to a point, about Allison still playing like a snooker player, though calling her the WPBA's John Horsfall is a bit too critical. On the other hand, despite the use of a snooker stance, Corr's offensive and defensive shot selection make her look like she's played pool for her whole life.

As for stringing racks, there's no such thing anymore. All WPBA events use alternate break now. So does the BCA Open and so does the challenge of champions. I'm not a big fan of it, but alternate break is the reality of women's pro pool.

Finally, I suspect you're wrong about how Balukas would have fared against them. My suspicion is that Jean would have been the best, but just barely.

Overall, though, Celtic, yours was a great post.
 
i dissagree, allison is the one who closes out better than any player on earth, male or female! karen corr is the weaker player. yes, they are both great, but there are two major differences, maybe more. here they are. corr prefers safes over playing the shot. corr breathes too heavily in the chair, causing her to get dizzy, and miss. fisher, keeps her cool in the chair. corr is a so-so shotmaker, compared to fisher, who is the greatest of all shotmakers, in closing they are both great, but when it comes down to the last three balls for a million dollars, i'll pick allison.
 
THE SILENCER said:
i dissagree, allison is the one who closes out better than any player on earth, male or female! karen corr is the weaker player. yes, they are both great, but there are two major differences, maybe more. here they are. corr prefers safes over playing the shot. corr breathes too heavily in the chair, causing her to get dizzy, and miss. fisher, keeps her cool in the chair. corr is a so-so shotmaker, compared to fisher, who is the greatest of all shotmakers, in closing they are both great, but when it comes down to the last three balls for a million dollars, i'll pick allison.
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Actually, Silencer, on your final point, we agree. Nobody executes the offense like Fisher, and I said as much in my post. Take a look at the two racks Fisher ran in the 2001 and 2002 Challenge of champion events. Each time, $25,000 was riding on it, and each time, she ran out.

Silencer, you may not like defense in big money situations, but Jeanette Lee's decision to play safe rather than trying to cut in a very makeable two ball in the playoff rack at the 2003 Challenge of Champions was the reason she beat Allison out of the $25,000 this past November.

Finally, calling Corr a so-so shotmaker is ridiculous. She's not quite up to Fisher level, but she's a great shotmaker.
 
sjm, great post. It is nice to see someone giving Karen due credit for taking the number one spot. It seems to me like it is very overshadowed by the death in Allison's family. Karen earned her way there and won all of the classic tour tournaments that year, something that had never been done. I am friends with both and I have played both. I have had more trouble playing Karen. I think their games are incredibly close and it can be a toss up when they are playing each other.

Anyway, thanks for giving a great player some credit.

Sarah
 
Colour of Money -idea is very interesting. Fisher vs. Corr, race-to-100. But, major adjustment would have to be made because watching women's pool on television is sometimes very frustrating. First, a shot-clock had to be introduced from rack one. Could be 30-45 secs per shot. No one is interested watching a race to 100 if one 4 ball runout takes 4 minutes !! Second, the applause thing is very annoying. How come the crowd claps on every and each one of the shots ? Do they really think it's amazing if a female can make 2-foot stop shot ? IMO, applause on every shot is degrading, because it suggests that you exceeded your skills on that particular shot. Applause only on really tough shots and without the interruption from the audience, the players could actually play a little bit faster.

Yeah, the Strickland vs. Reyes race-to-120 is quite legendary... sigh.. too bad I've never seen it...
 
mjantti said:
Colour of Money -idea is very interesting. Fisher vs. Corr, race-to-100. But, major adjustment would have to be made because watching women's pool on television is sometimes very frustrating. First, a shot-clock had to be introduced from rack one. Could be 30-45 secs per shot. No one is interested watching a race to 100 if one 4 ball runout takes 4 minutes !! Second, the applause thing is very annoying. How come the crowd claps on every and each one of the shots ? Do they really think it's amazing if a female can make 2-foot stop shot ? IMO, applause on every shot is degrading, because it suggests that you exceeded your skills on that particular shot. Applause only on really tough shots and without the interruption from the audience, the players could actually play a little bit faster.

Yeah, the Strickland vs. Reyes race-to-120 is quite legendary... sigh.. too bad I've never seen it...
Click to expand...

I agree with you about the crowd. Sometimes it's just plain ludicrous that they applaud a simple draw shot that goes the length of the table. These are shots that "C" players can execute, and the crowd goes wild. I think every televised tournament should have a "Shut up" monitor above the audience. It is a big glowing sign that says "Shut up" that remains on for most of the match. When a player makes a great shot, the sign turns off, and people can clap all they want.
 
mjantti said:
Colour of Money -idea is very interesting. Fisher vs. Corr, race-to-100. But, major adjustment would have to be made because watching women's pool on television is sometimes very frustrating. First, a shot-clock had to be introduced from rack one. Could be 30-45 secs per shot. No one is interested watching a race to 100 if one 4 ball runout takes 4 minutes !! Second, the applause thing is very annoying. How come the crowd claps on every and each one of the shots ? Do they really think it's amazing if a female can make 2-foot stop shot ? IMO, applause on every shot is degrading, because it suggests that you exceeded your skills on that particular shot. Applause only on really tough shots and without the interruption from the audience, the players could actually play a little bit faster.

Yeah, the Strickland vs. Reyes race-to-120 is quite legendary... sigh.. too bad I've never seen it...
Click to expand...

Good post, Mjantti. FYI, all televised women's pool has a thrity second shot clock now, and this has been so for years. Each player gets one extension per rack, allowing them to take up to one minute on that shot. Any match going double hill permits two extensions to each player in the final rack.

Like you, I find the applause factor a bit annoying, especially when a fluked shot is cheered as if it were intended, but it's perfectly normal for pool fans to offer applause whenever they see a shot executed that was either a) executed by a player they like, b) outstanding by their own playing standards, or c) executed at a critical moment in a match.

TV Game shows have producer-controlled applause, but sporting events are not the same. Do you really resent the a) NBA basketball fans that cheer after a made free throw (over 75% of the free throws are made in the NBA),
b) the football fans that cheer after the extra point kick following a touchdown (better than a 98% proposition), or the c) golf fan that cheers after a three foot putt is holed (close to a 90% proposition)? Fans always have and always will cheer for the execution of things that are quite easy to accomplish, but the enthusiasm they bring to pool and all other sports is indispensable.

Finally, Mjantti, get your hands on a tape on Earl vs Efren racing to 120. You'll love watching it.
 
Gremlin said:
sjm,

Nice post! Keep them coming! The information you refer to can be found at the WPBA Web Site at this link. http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1000386.

That old saying "over analysis leads to paralysis" fits here I think? I am a old fashioned fan. So I cheer for Karen Corr. I love her because she first of all is Irish, she has charm, grace and wit, she like Malea Haacke is first with me even if she finishes last and she has heart.

I am a fan so I am biased for Karen. sjm I am going to concede nothing to Allison. May I ask who's side you are on? Who do you like Allison or Karen?

Cheers,

Gremlin
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Gremlin, I wouldn't say I'm partial to either Fisher or Corr, but admire and respect both immensely, and believe they've proven themselves to be a cut above the rest. I just don't thnk Karen gets enough credit for what she's accomplished, which is why I started this thread. Of the top players on the WPBA tour, Jeanette Lee is my favorite.
 
Gremlin,

I think the biggest thing to overcome is the pressure of playing the two best players in the world. With time it gets easier (I played Karen three times in the first round and one other in later rounds and I have played Allison twice). The first time I played Karen I was ready...until they announced our names. Right then I started shaking. The next time was easier and so on. They are such great players and they have earned the intimidation factor. Karen's safety game is great. Allison rarely misses and nearly everytime she did against me I was hooked. They are both so tough and can close matches. Karen flips a switch around the middle of a match and moves up a level. It is very interesting.

Sarah
 
Just so everyone knows...there is no part of Allison's or Karen's game that Sarah can't deal with already...IMO. The only thing that they have over Sarah is years and years of experience. For anyone who has watched Sarah play...you know that her shot-making, her defense, her break...and her incredible heart make her a force to be reckoned with. In a very short time, she has managed to take down all the top names....except the above two. But mark my words...the reckoning is coming. Out of all the new girls that have joined the WPBA tour in the past couple years, Sarah has really proven herself to be the cream of the crop.

For some players, they will never have the ability or the drive to be a top player. That rule doesn't apply to Sarah. Where she goes from here....it's entirely up to her!

Melissa Herndon
 
Melissa, you are too nice. But you are leaving yourself out and you shouldn't. You too have taken out most of the top players and you are an incredible player. Back in the days of the winner break format I remember sitting in my chair for a VERY long time while playing you. You gave me my first true WPBA beating. I have learned alot from you and your attitude towards the game. Please don't leave yourself out when talking about the great players in the WPBA.

See you tomorrow!
Sarah
 
sarahrousey said:
Melissa, you are too nice. But you are leaving yourself out and you shouldn't. You too have taken out most of the top players and you are an incredible player. Back in the days of the winner break format I remember sitting in my chair for a VERY long time while playing you. You gave me my first true WPBA beating. I have learned alot from you and your attitude towards the game. Please don't leave yourself out when talking about the great players in the WPBA.

See you tomorrow!
Sarah
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Sarah,

OK. Then I guess I should've said you've taken down all but 3 of the top names.....LOL!!! Seriously, thank you very much for the compliments! I am completely realistic about where I stand among the WPBA talent...but I also know that I can't devote the time and energy that other players do sometimes...so I am not sure abuot what my future holds.

But I do know this....I am ready for Vegas and excited about playing again. So, I hope to kick some butt next week...and maybe even take out some more top names. It'll be me and Sarah against the rest of the WPBA....lol.

See you tomorrow!

Mel
 
Ga Young Kim

Gremlin said:
Melissa,

I agree with you 100%!

Cheers,

Gremlin
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Both Sarah and Melissa are wonderful players that have already proven themselves in competition. Both are a credit to women's pro pool and both have a bright future. Still, any analysis of who the cream of the crop has been among those that have joined the WPBA tour fairly recently must include Ga Young Kim, whose second place finish in the 2003 US Open surely represents the greatest achievement by a WPBA newcomer in recent memory. Seeing which of these three players rises highest should be fun, and I'll be rooting for all three to succeed.
 
Gremlin, I left something out. They both are so consistant that it's sickening. You just hope to catch them on a day that they realize they are human :)

Melissa, I'm happy to hear that you are excited and ready to play. Everyone better watch out now!

sjm, I agree with you 100%. Ga-Young is already in the top 16. I believe she will be in the top 5 by the end of the year. She definitely has the opportunity and the ability to get there and higher.

Sarah
 
Karen vs Fisher - Race to 50 is better

Frank_Glenn said:
I like it. Race to 100 for $100K. Televise it, DVD it, VHS, it, Bcn it, etc. I think you could comercialize it to the point that you could actually make a proffit if it is done right.
Click to expand...

I think a race to 50 would be much comfortable for these 2 players. No alternate breaks in order to view and have good statistics about run-outs, pocketing and missing.

Based on the info provided that Corr has won 15 events since 2000 vs the 13 by Allison; and taking into consideration that they may have not missed any of these tournaments. Karen's records does show that she is a much better player than many of us have perceived.
 
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