Fit and Finish.

[JB Cases]

Going from the frying pan and into the fire.

Ok I didn't want to discuss this in CC's "perfect case" thread.

And before I get into this rant let me just say that there is no such thing as a perfect cue case. Not ours, not anyone's.

But what I want to know is what level of quality you find acceptable?

Do you care about the following things? I do and I see that a lot of my competitors don't and I want to know if I am just being way to meticulous about this.

Maybe it's pure insecurity on my part. But when I see someone praising a case maker as the greatest cue case maker on Earth then I am compelled to go out and get one of their cases to see what they are doing so I can learn from it.

Today I received one of these cases and to say that I am disappointed is an understatement.

No, I will not name who the maker is. But I guarantee that if I ever let a case out of the shop that is made like this then I would be roundly spanked by the AZ community.

So, the following things mean something to me when I make a cue case. Are these things that you feel should be there or am I really just to anal about this?

1. Finish Protection - the damn case should not use fabric that is hard to the touch with ridges and bumps that you can feel. If you wouldn't deliberately polish your cue with it then it doesn't belong in a cue case.

2. Impact/Crushing Protection - If the case looks like a tube case then it should act like one. Not be a soft case in disguise. I am speaking specifically of using poster tubes made of thin plastic. If you LOOK at the case it seems solid but in fact these thin tubes can be crushed easily with little effort. Case Makers how about some FULL DISCLOSURE to your customers. Explain to them that if they want LIGHT WEIGHT then it comes with very little protection against impact and crushing. I am so tired of seeing cases that LOOK as if they are very protective in this area and in fact they are about as weak as a soft case.

3. Ease of Use - Why is it acceptable to have cases where you have to tip the case to get the cues out? This is ridiculous in my opinion. Just today on this case I received I was shocked to see that the person who sent it to me had left a shaft inside. It looks like a Prewitt shaft with very nice ivory ringwork on it. I had to tip the case to get the shaft out. I put the shaft back in it and was talking to my father about the lack of quality on this case and I inadvertently tipped the case and the shaft shot out and hit the tile floor. Luckily it didn't chip the collar on the shaft.

4. Interior/Exterior Fit - When the leather fits the interior loosely it just feels like crap to me. Not to mention that it's makes all the stress points weaker, like the handles and strap holders and lid and clasp fittings. Do you as a consumer expect to have a loose fitting case when you buy a tube case? This case I got today feels like a cheap leather bag put over some tubes. Frankly if I had ordered it and received it new in this condition then I would have put it back in the box and sent it back in five minutes. So I ask you all is this something you even care about? Because many of you have publicly stated that this case maker's cases are the "best you have ever owned". So if that's true then either you don't have much experience with well made leather goods or you truly jsut don't care about the fit as much as I do.

5. Weak Stress Points - When I owned Instroke I made a huge mistake when we went to mass production. I made the stress points too weak and paid for it dearly as I put out hundreds of cases where the handles broke, latches broke, etc... I eventually managed to figure out how to reinforce them to the point where I felt confident that they would be extremely durable. So it bothers the hell out of me when someone's case is touted as "the best" when I know I can tear it up with little effort.

6. Workmanship - Do you care about the details or is it the overall "picture" that is more important? I ask because this case I got today has metal sticking out on the strap holders, tool marks from the sewing machine foot impressed into the leather, tape showing at the top of the tubes, stitching is loose and uneven, there are nail heads sticking out and the case is just overall sloppily made. Again this maker is touted by some folks on this board as the greatest case maker on Earth. And no I am not going to name names and yes I am inviting severe comparison to our work. If you all allow me to do work like this then I will cut my prices in half and put out three times as many cases. I honestly can't do work like this.

So do you all care about the details or not?

At what price point does it matter?

I PROMISE YOU that if I were to make a case like the one I am holding in my hands right now and tried to charge what this maker does then I would be strung up, tarred and feathered by this community.

So why do you then accept this level of case from others?

I sure as hell expected a lot more than this piece of crap I am holding in my hands. If this is the level of quality that so many of you feel is "the best" then I am certainly in the wrong business.

So let's hear it.

How many of you are willing to just discuss pure QUALITY and not flame me for speaking my mind on the subject? How many of you can get over your cult of personality and look at your cue case as an object to be truly examined as to it's factual fit and finish and not based on the "reputation" of the maker? How many of you can do that and admit to yourselves that you should have gotten a better product for the money you spent?

I am an asshole about this subject. Truly I am. But I am really freaking tired of seeing pieces of crap cases put out there and touted as the best there is by people who either don't know any better or who do know better and choose to perpetuate the myth so that they don't feel bad for getting a piece of crap when they thought they were going to get something good.

Have I delivered cases which fell short of my lofty ideals on the subject. You bet I have. I have replaced several cases for people on this forum, I have repaired several more where things were either done wrong or some part failed. I have put out a few cases which I felt could have been done better. I have also made cases and not sent them out electing to remake them because they didn't turn out good enough. We had a black and white one that I made three times.

I am proud to say that I have never sent a case that is as bad as the one I am holding in my hands right now to any customer anywhere. I have never and will never knowingly send a case that is this crappy to anyone. I will get out of the business first because I just can't make a case this bad.

So, let's see if you can discuss QUALITY and what it means to you without the flaming. But if you want to flame me then go ahead. I guarantee you that I am not going to back down on this one.

So I challenge you all to tell me what makes a good case.

Inside and out. What do you care about?

You know what I care about and what I say I try to deliver.

It's a sad world where people can charge so much and deliver so little and get away with it.

 

[NewStroke]

Hey John,

I got one of your cases a little over a month ago and can find no flaws in it. I love the case inside and out. My cues and shafts fit snugly into the case and there is no rattle whatsoever. The case has some weight to it, but to me that spells quality. Please keep doing the work you are doing, I have been recommending your cases to everyone that asks.

Have a great day.

Dan

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Honestly some people do not know the difference between a Hot Dog, and Haute Cuisine.

 

[Nick B]

One word....Infomercial.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

One word....Infomercial.

I think NOT!!!! As many Case, and Cuemaker post their latest creations....

 

[JB Cases]

One word....Infomercial.

You bet it is.

Now, do you have an opinion on what QUALITY in an expensive "high end" case should be?

Seriously Nick if you were buying a Porsche and someone delivered the equivalent of a Ford Fiesta would you be a little upset or would you just accept it and be a happy "Porsche" owner?

That's the question that is on the table.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Seriously Nick if you were buying a Porsche and someone delivered the equivalent of a Ford Fiesta would you be a little upset or would you just accept it and be a happy "Porsche" owner?

I would be looking for the SOB....

 

[cornerstone]

Honestly some people do not know the difference between a Hot Dog, and Haute Cuisine.

whats a haute cuiswine?

 

[ceebee]

JB, that is the CROWN JEWEL of Pool Cue Cases.

 

[ibuycues]

Haute Cuisine

whats a haute cuiswine?

This is fancy, elaborate cooking, usually French.

For example, when they serve you asparagus spears in a fine restaurant and they are set up like a tepee...etc. You usually don`t get full when eating haute cuisine. At least, the way I eat..... Heh, heh..

Will

 

[mamono]

But what I want to know is what level of quality you find acceptable?

A case that does exactly that, protects the cues! My biggest concern is to get a close to an air tight seal as possible because this would curb the affects of humidity.

Do you care about the following things? I do and I see that a lot of my competitors don't and I want to know if I am just being way to meticulous about this.

Of course, we care about quality. The more expensive the cue, the greater the concern to protect the cue. Quality comes with a price tag, those that have purchased higher end customs realize the need to protect them in quality cases often times after the 1st mistake of damaging one of their custom cues in a lower end case.

Maybe it's pure insecurity on my part. But when I see someone praising a case maker as the greatest cue case maker on Earth then I am compelled to go out and get one of their cases to see what they are doing so I can learn from it.

I chalk it up to opinion. Think of it like Amazon.com. Each product will have a number of reviews. Some will be stellar, and some not so much. The key is to stay in the 4-5 star range. I don't see very many case makers being too concerned with customer feedback. I think it is very important and that is something you're doing quite well at.

1. Finish Protection

I couldn't agree more on this. The interior should be plush enough to not scratch the finish at all, it should practically polish it. I remember some dealer cases lined with a foam material that put hundreds of tiny scratches all over the cue.

2. Impact/Crushing Protection

Isn't this the main reason why we use a case in the first place? I don't intend on driving my car over my cue and case, but I sure as hell would like to be confident that if I dropped my case accidentally while going to and from the pool hall or go traveling that my cue(s) would be protected!

3. Ease of Use

I think you're conditioned by your own cases with that non-slip design!

4. Interior/Exterior Fit

Important, but only as much as until the case it used and beat up. After that point, its served its purpose and time to move onto a new case. Its nice to look good and keep it looking good. I don't think any case makers have shown much concern about case maintenance and upkeep.

5. Weak Stress Points

My big beef with It's George cases on the 2x4's was the cracking lids at the latch, weak strap hinges, and protruding rivets for the latches that dug into the inner tubing. I totally understand you're point.

6. Workmanship

Absolutely, I think workmanship is extremely important; otherwise, why pay for something that could be considered crap or done half @$$'ed.

So do you all care about the details or not?
At what price point does it matter?

Details, yes. Price point, depends on the case, style, features, and whatever custom. Too many variables are present to properly determine that. Also, too many different expectations to meet... It might be a good idea to start doing surveys with your target customer base.

So why do you then accept this level of case from others?

I sure as hell expected a lot more than this piece of crap I am holding in my hands. If this is the level of quality that so many of you feel is "the best" then I am certainly in the wrong business.

I believe it has to do with customer perception, statistical analysis and surveys should help get a better understanding. I don't believe anyone in the industry has really gone out of their way to do that.

How many of you are willing to just discuss pure QUALITY and not flame me for speaking my mind on the subject? How many of you can get over your cult of personality and look at your cue case as an object to be truly examined as to it's factual fit and finish and not based on the "reputation" of the maker? How many of you can do that and admit to yourselves that you should have gotten a better product for the money you spent?

I have numerous cases of different brands and types. Some I use, some I don't and are completely empty. I have quirks and qualms with each and every case that I own. I also have likes and appreciation for each and every case also because they too have a good side, the pro's and con's as you will. Sure, searching for the perfect case is like searching for the perfect cue, but I don't think that will ever happen. Yet, you can come close to perfect. Then again, that can be subjective. A cue/case can be perceived as perfect for one person, but is perceived flawed by another. Can't please everyone, but you sure as hell can do a great job at pleasing the majority. 4-5 stars scenario if you will.

I am an asshole about this subject. Truly I am. But I am really freaking tired of seeing pieces of crap cases put out there and touted as the best there is by people who either don't know any better or who do know better and choose to perpetuate the myth so that they don't feel bad for getting a piece of crap when they thought they were going to get something good.

You have a passion for cue cases. Like the idea of capitalism, without competition then there would not be innovations and improvements. Each competitor competing for business by improving their products and price points to persuade customers to continue to buy their products rather than from competitors.

Have I delivered cases which fell short of my lofty ideals on the subject. You bet I have. I have replaced several cases for people on this forum, I have repaired several more where things were either done wrong or some part failed. I have put out a few cases which I felt could have been done better. I have also made cases and not sent them out electing to remake them because they didn't turn out good enough. We had a black and white one that I made three times.

I am proud to say that I have never sent a case that is as bad as the one I am holding in my hands right now to any customer anywhere. I have never and will never knowingly send a case that is this crappy to anyone. I will get out of the business first because I just can't make a case this bad.

So, let's see if you can discuss QUALITY and what it means to you without the flaming. But if you want to flame me then go ahead. I guarantee you that I am not going to back down on this one.

Quality isn't just about build of a case, but also brand name behind the product and how well the product is supported. Like when I buy a car, it damn well had better not break down on me while driving off the lot, but luckily for me it comes with a warranty but it still better not break on me!

So I challenge you all to tell me what makes a good case.

Inside and out. What do you care about?

You know what I care about and what I say I try to deliver.

It's a sad world where people can charge so much and deliver so little and get away with it.

Price is a perception of value. I would have to say that it is necessary to establish a base, then work from that. I believe you have done that already. You've made numerous valid points regarding what makes a case, not just a good case, but a great or spectacular case. Do a survey, get more info. Final out what is the perceived value to the projected target audience. I think pool player is too general because there are different levels of pool player and then there are different levels of collectors.

Hope this helps.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Go john Barton

When I got my First Jay Flowers Tribute Case, I took the Case over to the Community Leather Club as one of the Member who also plays Pool said to bring it over for the Member to see.

These guys are all OLD FARTS who make everything from Belts to Saddle as a hobby in the Community Leather Club. Many have mastered the Sheridan Western Style Leather Carving that I would say was a good as it gets.

All of the Community Leather Club Members were impressed with John's work, and when I mention he was building there Jay Flowers Tribute Case in China people were even more impressed.

John to me is like George Barris The King of Car Customizers, in that George did not slap a set of FANCY Rims on a Factory Stock Car, and call it a Custom Car.

George Barris took peoples ideas like John has done so many times, and created their DREAM POOL CUE CASE, like he did for one of the AZB MEMBERS.

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks CC -

Folks, this thread is about what do you EXPECT for the money. Honestly, for the money I spent on the case I got which is to say the money I WOULD have gotten for the JB case I traded to get this case I would have expected a super tight piece of leather work that blew me away.

Instead I get something like a cheap purse.

If you spend $500 or more on a cue case what type of workmanship do you expect to get?

That's what I want to know.

 

[mdavis228]

When I get my JB Case, I hope to be able to compare vs the other cases I've owned and/or seen and have a new standard for my expectations.

 

[3kushn]

Fit and finish is a good title for this subject.

Bottom line UTILITY is what I look for rather than a showcase case. Nobody makes a standard case that will fit my need so custom is the only way for me and that costs.
Whitten was the only one I could find at the time that would or could do what I needed.

Before the Whitten I had a $75 case that was great. It had a ballistic material cover with hard plastic tubes which were lined and foam top and bottom, shoulder strap and reg. handle.
But like you said JB there's no perfect case and I had to do a mod and that damaged the integrity of the construction so it only lasted about 10 years. Not bad for the cash.

One thing I'll suggest on high end leather cases for $400 and up. The dyed leather should be dyed all the way through. Forget what they call that process. I have a custom portfolio
with this type of dying and it's over 20 years old and believe me I that thing has been through hell and back. Still in use and looks good.

 

[chefjeff]

I play leagues so I carry my case to the bar and to the car. Not much protection needed, but convenience is good.

I prefer practicle lightweight cases (soft for me) and nothing fancy as I don't want someone being tempted to walk off with my stuff.

I want enough room for my two cues, my little candy box that holds chalk, etc. my Cue Nook that attaches to a table to hold cues and a little pocket for flat things, such as rulebook, pencil, etc. I don't want the handle(s) falling off or tears, etc. either.

When I see a beautiful case like you make, I'm impressed, but wouldn't pay $500 bucks for it, for sure. But that's just me....I'm not really a materialistic kind of guy. I also don't want fancy cues.

Nice stuff and boy do I appreciate your attention to quality and detail. You must make your competition squirm!

Jeff Livingston

 

[metallicane]

I expect a lightweight, soft, well put together case. I can't wait to see it. I hope your trip to the states is going well.

 

[ShootingArts]

my expectations

John,

Once I get out of "junk" price range I expect a well constructed item regardless of what it is. Quite honestly, I expect a case to protect my cues in normal use. If I toss it in the back seat and it bounces to the floor of the truck I don't expect any damage to contents although the case may show a mark or two. That is the price I pay for leather. If I toss the case with enough enthusiasm that it flies out the open door on the other side of the truck and into the four lane where it gets ran over by two eighteen wheelers and a garbage truck then I won't damn the case maker too loudly if I have a dent or scratch on a cue.

I want a durable case that is reasonably attractive and protects my cues in reasonable conditions. If I wanted a case that would protect my cue in all conditions I'd have it made at the local fabrication shop out of 3/8" steel.

However, you have a very good point about names and snob value. I can't count the times when people were talking about how wonderful an item was with obvious flaws because it was made by a major name. I couldn't help thinking, "take the name off of it and the same people would be calling this a POS!"

I have decided a long time ago that there is a niche for everyone. Find your niche and be happy. Don't worry about the niche somebody else fills.

Hu

 

[dlabout]

John,
Here is my 2 cents on quality. I am currently sporting a 20 year old Joe Porper that weighs a ton but was good protection when I bought it. The quality at $75 bucks was ok but I accepted the cheap materials for the price. After 20 years its still doing the job.

In the case of a custom case I expect much more. As a Marine I know what "attention to detail" is all about. I would expect a case to not only look uniform and be well finished, but to stand up over time and protect the cues. All stitching should be uniform and straight. Fasteners should be laid out evenly around the area being attached. The color of the dye should be even. Any design patterns should be well laid out and free from double strikes and within the pattern. All edges should be finished. The interior should be of equal finish quality. All attachments should hold up under normal use.

While entertaining the thought of a custom case, that would be my one and only case going forward, I spent a lot of time watching Samm Diep's "What's in the case" interviews. What I did notice was that some of the leather shell cases tend to sag at the base of the case. I believe the impact of setting them down over and over tends to make the leather bulge and buckle. I'm not sure if it is a design flaw of the case or the hard use by the pro players. I don’t know if the outer shell of leather is supposed to support the weight of the case or the interior is supposed to carry the load. I guess it depends on the interior. If it is intended to be ultra light then my expectation is that the outer shell has been bolstered to handle the structure of the case.

-Doug

 

[Celtic]

Folks, this thread is about what do you EXPECT for the money.

That's what I want to know.

For the money if I am buying a custom made case in the $1000+ range I am expecting the world.

I expect first off that the case will meet the highest functional standard. What I mean by that is it is not acceptable for form to come before function in something like a case. The case must still perform the function to the highest standards in both protection and ease of use despite the artistry and added looks.

I expect top end workmanship that ensures the case will last a lifetime. I am fine with the leather aging and showing wear, I am ok with the interior maybe needing to be replaced in 10 years, but the case itself must not fall to pieces, it needs to be built solid, everything must be glued perfect, and/or stitched extremely well, so that things dont start coming loose, breaking, or coming off 5 years down the road. Stitches coming loose, glued sections starting to peel back, this kind of stuff cannot take place. I don't mind a case aging gracefully, colors in the carved leather fade, the leather wears abit on corners where friction over times gives it that old leather sheen, it cannot fall to pieces though.

I also expect in terms of workmanship that it be done with a keen eye for detail. If someone looks at the stitching closely the stiches should be straight, the same spacing, and tight. Cut sections of leather should be folded in so that these edges are unseen. The carving would be detailed enough that someone could look close at the ocean and notice that the leather is carved and dyed such that is shows the peaks of the waves rolling into the beach. A case should be more and more impressive the closer you look at it and inspect it, not vice versa.

And the last thing? I want the care to be in the case throughout. Much like you showed in your video John the detail and care in a case is often only "as far as the eye can see". If I am spending a boatload on a case I want that nice soft bouncy cushion layer at the base of the case as well where the butt of the cue and the shafts touch down, not only on the lid where I can see it. If the case is taken apart I want to see that the care and attention to detail and protection exists throughout. No rivets poking through the leather on the inside of the case, no switch from plush sleeves to flimsy material once past the area one can see, no raw wood base for my cues to sit on down in the dark of the case where I cannot see. The case should be built such that the thing could get taken apart and the owner would be impressed as ever with the care that went into the thing, inside AND out.