Fixing the For Sale forum. Actual solutions with links to mods and plugins.

[azhousepro]

First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to put this together. It obviously took some research into the modifications and some time thinking about the issue and possible fixes.

I had not found a thread bumping mod on vbulletin.org that did what we wanted it to. This looks like it might, but it is for version 4. I have a note out to them asking if it will work on 3.8.

I don't know how the pay area would go. The original intention of Panjo was to roll out a tiered system that would charge a small fee for the heavy sellers, but the general population went crazy when Panjo was installed. I don't know if it was the idea that we might charge for selling, if it was just Panjo or a combination of them both.

The "sold" mod should be easy to do.

We have added another mod to the wanted/for sale area and have a couple more that we are considering adding. It seems to be though, that the biggest need for mods is not in that area. Am I wrong in that assumption?

Mike

Yes, its been beaten to death but one of the main issues is that very few have offered actual applicable solutions to fixing the issue. No shortage of complaints and suggestions, some good some bad.

Here are some actual plugins and mods that I think will restore the For Sale forum close enough to its previous state while making sensible corrections that address the original concerns that led to all the changes.

Plus a few of my suggestions that are easily implemented.

Some of these will likely require a vbulletin upgrade but that shouldn't be a big issue.

1. Bump Prevent - The BumpPrevent Plugin allows bumping of a thread only by the Creator of the Thread after a specified Time elapsed.

http://vb-plugins.com/bump-prevent.html

This solves the issue of everyone's comments bumping a thread and gives the OP the ability to bump the thread but only after a specified time period. Such as 24 or 48 hours.

2. Pay to Post - With the Pay2Post Plugin you can setup paid forum section and members need to pay to activate their Thread. This can be useful for a Classified Ads or Advertising section on your forum.

http://vb-plugins.com/pay2post.html

A premium sub section for dealers, heavy flippers, cue makers and online storefronts.

It has been discussed that dealers and heavy sellers be permitted to sell in their own dedicated forum. This allows for a charge to use that sub forum. The advantage to the dealer is that there would be less traffic with more exposure. There could be a number of additional benefits added to this like dedicated library or even a dedicated Sub forum store front. Which I think is much needed here.

3. Mark as Sold- This modification will allow you & your members (based on usergroup permissions) to mark a thread as "Sold". It will add the prefix "SOLD" to the thread title, and if set in the admincp - it will also close the thread.

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=271747

Here's my outline that I believe will work. Not an end all be all. I'm certain that some changes along the way will be needed but this will go a long way in restoring the market here.

1. Cue flippers, cue sellers, dealers and cue makers should be afforded their own subsection to advertise independently from the For Sale Forum.

IE - for 200 bucks a year or a pay per thread mod you'll have your own subsection to post your items for sale, share your current work and post to your own gallery. This could be customized in many different ways. These "pay for" subforums have been successful on many other forums. Your own little retail/advert area.

In the For Sale forum -

2. Install a mod that allows posts but prohibits the posts from bumping the thread.

3. Install the bump prevent feature and set it for every 48 hours. Allowing the user to bump the thread after the set time and partner this with the Mark as Sold mod which will close the thread.

4. Add moderators. There should be no less than 5 active mods for this section.

These few changes will control the bumping without stifling the conversation. The subforums open up a stream of revenue and allow those who want to pay a place to showcase their work or create threads in bulk.

 

[Double-Dave]

Hi Mike,

The biggest need for mods is not at all in the W/FS section the way it is now. Install good mods and there
will remain no need for extra mods. However in the main and NPR at least 2 or 3 extra are very much needed.

As to the plugins not doing exactly what you want them to, at the very worst a couple hundred dollars but more
likely 10-100$ will get you a programmer that knows his stuff to write it for you. Please get it done before it is
too late.

As to why Panjo failed, it was just that the whole damn system sucked, at the very least it was way too different
from what we all know now. For us computer generation guys no problem at all, but for the older guys, big ass
problem. It was not 1 small thing that was bad.

gr. Dave

 

[azhousepro]

Unfortunately, the bump prevent add on will not work on 3.8. I am checking into another solution at the moment.

Mike

 

[Bishop]

First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to put this together. It obviously took some research into the modifications and some time thinking about the issue and possible fixes.

I had not found a thread bumping mod on vbulletin.org that did what we wanted it to. This looks like it might, but it is for version 4. I have a note out to them asking if it will work on 3.8.

I don't know how the pay area would go. The original intention of Panjo was to roll out a tiered system that would charge a small fee for the heavy sellers, but the general population went crazy when Panjo was installed. I don't know if it was the idea that we might charge for selling, if it was just Panjo or a combination of them both.

The "sold" mod should be easy to do.

We have added another mod to the wanted/for sale area and have a couple more that we are considering adding. It seems to be though, that the biggest need for mods is not in that area. Am I wrong in that assumption?

Mike

Thanks Mike. I have a number of people I can reach out to if you get stuck again trying to solve this bumping mod. I think I might be able to get with someone who makes custom add-ons for vbulletin or perhaps modify existing ones to work accordingly. That might be the way to go since some of these mods aren't compatible.

As far as a "pay" section goes I think its more about weighing what the benefits would be for actually paying. IE renting a subsection as a store front(instead of paying extra for selling privileges) here would be enough exposure for someone like myself to bite. It would be much easier to gain interest with the built in traffic here vs. trying to direct groups of people to a blog or a website. There could be other benefits like backlinking to say a cue makers website that could accompany a subsection. Even a banner or 24 hour bumping vs. 48 in the for sale section could provide some value.

The real value is that it creates a new provenance for peoples work and that's more indicative to growth than a guy making the rare post or two in the cue gallery.

I think if you started with a small group as a trial run it would give people a chance to see the benefits of renting subsections instead of balking at paying through a 3rd party.

 

[dom_poppa]

ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,
ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,
ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,
ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,ZERO I TRADER,

My point is, it would be nice to here from members who actually have been buying or selling cues in the WFS for awhile.
Chances are those members that have been doing this for a few years know more about why the wanted for sale section is like watching paint dry now.

We don't need the never ending advise from some one who has never bought or sold anything in the WFS section,.
I am sorry but until you have sold a few cues in there you really have no idea how it really works.

Personally I have problem with you always offering your advise or you know exactly what the problems are with the WFS but you haven't sold one thing and you refuse to shut up and listen to some of the people who have been successfully buying and selling billiard products in this forum for years.

I seen you offered real help to some one in another thread about making a web site for them.
My hat is off to you for that kind gesture, I had pretty much pegged you way differently.

If I was to make a web site it would be plain as day I had no idea what I was doing because I don't.

No offence but it is plain as day that you don't know as much about the wanted for sale section as you think.

Personally this is all stupid, just add another section with 24 hr bump and let people leave replies just like it was in the good old days.
leave the rest of the for sale sections the same.
You will have a on No bump section and one where bumping and replies are allowed.
ABC simple, everyone has the choice where they wish to list there products.
And no one has to get Butt hurt over the added section

Oh yes, the tried-and-true argument of "I-Trader"

How do you know I haven't sold anything on the For Sale section because I have zero I-trader? Hate to break it to you but I have sold stuff before.

Now as far as the For Sale section goes, you guys can still bump the thread and have an avenue to sell things.

What is the problem again?

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Your words

Oh yes, the tried-and-true argument of "I-Trader"

How do you know I haven't sold anything on the For Sale section because I have zero I-trader? Hate to break it to you but I have sold stuff before.

Now as far as the For Sale section goes, you guys can still bump the thread and have an avenue to sell things.

What is the problem again?

My point is your are not a seller or a buyer as your I trader reflects that.
The rest of my point is because you don't have the hands on experience your advise is based on what ?

They brought in some marketing expert ( Panjo ) and it fell flat one its face.

And as of right now The people who are running AZB have no idea why it failed.

Everyone is running around giving great advise or they know so much about marketing they don't even bother to ask why Panjo really failed..

The real reason the wanted for sale section has slowed down is because of money..
The big cue retailers that want to sale thousands of cues and bought the advertising banners complained about the WFS and the sellers being able to sale there products for free.
Therefor putting the pressure on the owners of AZB to phase out the wanted for sale section of all new billiard products.
Because the advertisement banned pay one hell of allot more then the gold members do.

The simple way to fix the WFS section would be to put a for sale thread section in that was exactly like it use to be.
Leave the rest of the sections alone the sellers would have the choice of listing there products in either the FS section that allows bumping or the section that does not.

Someone said in order to play a good game of pool that person has to want to,
well its the same thing with the WFS, if its going to get fixed Someone is going to have to want to fix it.


PS the reason Panjo didn't work is because it was force down our throats.

 

[azhousepro]

Not getting anywhere on the mod, but it is a holiday weekend. I will give it another day or two before I move on to looking for someone else.

I love the idea of regular sellers having a showcase for their items, but that was kind of the direction we wanted to go in with Panjo and we both know how well that went over. What is going to stop another backlash like that one?

Mike

Thanks Mike. I have a number of people I can reach out to if you get stuck again trying to solve this bumping mod. I think I might be able to get with someone who makes custom add-ons for vbulletin or perhaps modify existing ones to work accordingly. That might be the way to go since some of these mods aren't compatible.

As far as a "pay" section goes I think its more about weighing what the benefits would be for actually paying. IE renting a subsection as a store front(instead of paying extra for selling privileges) here would be enough exposure for someone like myself to bite. It would be much easier to gain interest with the built in traffic here vs. trying to direct groups of people to a blog or a website. There could be other benefits like backlinking to say a cue makers website that could accompany a subsection. Even a banner or 24 hour bumping vs. 48 in the for sale section could provide some value.

The real value is that it creates a new provenance for peoples work and that's more indicative to growth than a guy making the rare post or two in the cue gallery.

I think if you started with a small group as a trial run it would give people a chance to see the benefits of renting subsections instead of balking at paying through a 3rd party.

 

[azhousepro]

Actually Mike, we expected that Panjo would make it easier for people selling new items to promote those sales and we went to Seyberts (who handles our marketplace) and told them what we were doing and that we would not allow sellers to compete with them via the marketplace.

No banner advertiser has come to us and asked us to stop anything in the wanted/for sale area. Keep in mind that we don't really have banners from the big online pro shops. Our advertisers are mostly brands that want to promote themselves. They don't care if someone buys their stuff through an online pro shop or an individual.

As for Panjo, I tried to make it as clear as I could that we were simply trying it and asked that people give it a shot to see if it made things better. The vast majority of sellers were not interested in trying anything new and fed the fire of "oh my god, this is not my beautiful website".

My point is your are not a seller or a buyer as your I trader reflects that.
The rest of my point is because you don't have the hands on experience your advise is based on what ?

They brought in some marketing expert ( Panjo ) and it fell flat one its face.

And as of right now The people who are running AZB have no idea why it failed.

Everyone is running around giving great advise or they know so much about marketing they don't even bother to ask why Panjo really failed..

The real reason the wanted for sale section has slowed down is because of money..
The big cue retailers that want to sale thousands of cues and bought the advertising banners complained about the WFS and the sellers being able to sale there products for free.
Therefor putting the pressure on the owners of AZB to phase out the wanted for sale section of all new billiard products.
Because the advertisement banned pay one hell of allot more then the gold members do.

The simple way to fix the WFS section would be to put a for sale thread section in that was exactly like it use to be.
Leave the rest of the sections alone the sellers would have the choice of listing there products in either the FS section that allows bumping or the section that does not.

Someone said in order to play a good game of pool that person has to want to,
well its the same thing with the WFS, if its going to get fixed Someone is going to have to want to fix it.


PS the reason Panjo didn't work is because it was force down our throats.

 

[Bishop]

Not getting anywhere on the mod, but it is a holiday weekend. I will give it another day or two before I move on to looking for someone else.

I love the idea of regular sellers having a showcase for their items, but that was kind of the direction we wanted to go in with Panjo and we both know how well that went over. What is going to stop another backlash like that one?

Mike

I think the issue was that it felt 3rd party-ish. It felt detached. We could probably go rounds with all kinds of scenarios where it might have worked perfectly but in the end it just didn't.

What will be different this time around is that won't come across as a separate platform. It'll feel like home since it'll be just another subforum. I would also start with say 2-3 or maybe 4 dedicated guys who will make this a positive thing (feel free to count me in). Then after say 60 days we can look at what's working and what isn't. Letting it evolve a bit organically with a small test group vs. rolling it out to the masses should help it go much smoother.

I think your Product Talk section is where I would rent those sub forums. A little consolidation there wouldn't be a bad thing either. The cue and case gallery should be right up top. Then (some made up examples). Followed by the rest of the pertinent subsections.

IE

Product Talk

Cue & Case Gallery

Sugartree Cues

Olney's Alley

Superior Cue Sales

Jim Baxter's Corner

Pool Tables and Accessories Reviews

Cues, Cue Cases, Shafts and Cue Accessories Reviews

Cue Machinery and Supplies

Ask The Cuemaker

Talk To A Mechanic

Then provide a few benefits to those willing to rent the sub forum. 24 hour bump in the for sale section, banner ad, backlinking to their website or facebook page, Auto gold member...or any other ideas you might have.

All in all with 50 sub forums here I would look to consolidate in a lot of areas anyway. Not to veer off and surely some will bark but right now there are over 15 forums with less than 100 threads. I don't see any benefit to being spread so thin.

 

[Type79]

As I See It

As I see it, there are essentially two points of view regarding the Wanted/For Sale Section: Those that want a social atmosphere and those who want a classified section.

There is a percentage of users that might not be interested in buying or trading anything, but only want to join in discussions in the Wanted/For Sale forum.

 

[dom_poppa]

As I see it, there are essentially two points of view regarding the Wanted/For Sale Section: Those that want a social atmosphere and those who want a classified section.

There is a percentage of users that might not be interested in buying or trading anything, but only want to join in discussions in the Wanted/For Sale forum.

Agree.

It is so hard to keep of stuff in the past and recently it is easier to see what is new and what is not. The comments that bumped the threads were getting bad as we would see that item/thread on the top of the page for days.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Panjo

Actually Mike, we expected that Panjo would make it easier for people selling new items to promote those sales and we went to Seyberts (who handles our marketplace) and told them what we were doing and that we would not allow sellers to compete with them via the marketplace.



Please explain us not competing with Seyberts again

 

[skins]

Actually Mike, we expected that Panjo would make it easier for people selling new items to promote those sales and we went to Seyberts (who handles our marketplace) and told them what we were doing and that we would not allow sellers to compete with them via the marketplace.



Please explain us not competing with Seyberts again

Yeah, I'd like to hear the particulars... Maybe coddling the "sponsored" competition is the reason for the non action to all the great suggestions...

 

[dom_poppa]

Unless there was a change of rules to "coddle" the sponsors but AZB finally did what they were set out to do in the first place, disallow comments and rule-breaking bumps.

Don't know how that equates to coddling.

 

[dom_poppa]

Actually Mike, we expected that Panjo would make it easier for people selling new items to promote those sales and we went to Seyberts (who handles our marketplace) and told them what we were doing and that we would not allow sellers to compete with them via the marketplace.

No banner advertiser has come to us and asked us to stop anything in the wanted/for sale area. Keep in mind that we don't really have banners from the big online pro shops. Our advertisers are mostly brands that want to promote themselves. They don't care if someone buys their stuff through an online pro shop or an individual.

As for Panjo, I tried to make it as clear as I could that we were simply trying it and asked that people give it a shot to see if it made things better. The vast majority of sellers were not interested in trying anything new and fed the fire of "oh my god, this is not my beautiful website".

You're doing a great job here and take it from me who has been a long time veteran here. Over 5 plus years of educating and contributing to this place, people are afraid of change.

Also, it is not anyone's business in how AZB monetizes this site. I don't think you need to do any explaining.

 

[The Renfro]

Yeah, I'd like to hear the particulars... Maybe coddling the "sponsored" competition is the reason for the non action to all the great suggestions...

no they are not the "sponsored" competition.... They are a "SPONSOR".... As in they pay to play..... and likely they pay pretty well... better than a gold membership which you won't even spring for.....

 

[skins]

no they are not the "sponsored" competition.... They are a "SPONSOR".... As in they pay to play..... and likely they pay pretty well... better than a gold membership which you won't even spring for.....

So since I wont "spring" for a Gold membership that's why I you think I asked the question?

Look at my I trader. I don't use this forum to sell much of anything.

"I'm here just for the food"....

Skins ------------- is pretty hungry...

 

[The Renfro]

So since I wont "spring" for a Gold membership that's why I you think I asked the question?

Look at my I trader. I don't use this forum to sell much of anything.

"I'm here just for the food"....

Skins ------------- is pretty hungry...

OK I jumped in both feet LOL.... I apologize... I think the issue is we are on 3.8 so Mike is trying to figure it out... I don't pretend to know a thing about the cbulletin stuff so I should have stayed out of here anyway... But I do sell and can't wait for them to fix things!

 

[Bishop]

You're doing a great job here and take it from me who has been a long time veteran here. Over 5 plus years of educating and contributing to this place, people are afraid of change.

Also, it is not anyone's business in how AZB monetizes this site. I don't think you need to do any explaining.

He doesn't have to do anything but there are a lot of us that could potentially help improve things. This site directly affects the market and a lot of us care about where the billiard industry as a whole is headed. Not to mention the overall state of the community.

There's a difference between open discussion and opening up the books. We're not trying to dig into his personal business. We're trying to help improve things on the surface. If there's one thing I've learned over the years is that frank and open discussions about progress and change are always a good thing.

 

[azhousepro]

The idea was that it didn't make much sense to have cue dealers logging into the forums and advertising a brand new Predator cue at the same price as our own marketplace is selling it.

A used cue is different, but why have people use the forums to compete with our own marketplace on new items?

Please explain us not competing with Seyberts again