Follow-up between Hal and Thingie (Joel)

My 2 cents, for what it is worth

I will agree with Billy above. I know neither of these two guys, have not had transactions with them, but can understand the dilemma. Trust is something earned around here, and some people are more trusting than others. But you have to start somewhere and have somebody take a chance on you here, or you will never grow trust and respect. Overseas transactions are always tricky, and I have done quite a few myself, but there is always a risk. Seems to me that Hal sent the money, expected a specific cue in a specific condition, and thatis NOT what he received. The seller needs to come correct, and refund his money immediately. Hal took the first step of trust with sending the money before the cue arrived, and now he is only asking for the same trust to be returned by thingie regarding returning the money before the cue is returned. If Thingie can't do this, then we all have a problem. IMHO, this will cause many of us AZ'ers to refrain from overseas deals, unless through a service like proficient billards, and maybe that will just make us stay in the states with our deals and purchases.
This cannot be good for overseas sellers, and therefore, Thingie must do what is right, and return the respect and trust that Hal had given to him. Why does Thingie need a mediator now, unless something is seriously wrong on his side. Seems cut and dry to me. Money sent, cue sent, cue not as advertised, issue with cue immediately brought to seller(Thingie) by buyer (Hal), money returned to Hal, Cue returned to Thingie.
If Thingie is trying to keep his reputation from being tarnished, every second this continues, it only gets worse. As Spike Lee would say, "Do the right thing!'

Just one man's honest opinion.

Michael
 
raemondo said:
Hi guys,

I have been asked by Thingie (Joel) to serve as a neutral party in the resolution of this matter. As most of you know, Hal recently bought a SW from Thingie, found a ding and a warp, and is now requesting a refund from Thingie. Thingie has asked Hal to ship the cue to me, and once I have confirmed receipt, Thingie will issue a refund to Hal. I will then also be taking pictures of the ding on the cue as well as the butt warp and posting them here. Subsequently, I will be taking the cue up to Ed Young in Chicago to ask his expert opinion regarding the damages on the cue and also request a re-finish to be done on the SW. The cue will NOT leave the USA.

Please note that this thread is meant to help salvage Thingie's reputation and is not intended to be a ground for flame wars. I will also only be posting events as they happen and pictures as I take them, and not my personal opinion in the matter. I have no personal interest in the sale of the cue and no say in Hal and Thingie's monetary transactions.

Thanks for reading and like everyone else, I hope that this situation will be resolved amicably.
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Raemondo says Thingie will refund the money when Raemondo receives the cue. But then he follows up by talking about taking pictures and posting them, then going to an expert to estimate the damages. It sounds like Thingie intends a dispute of some sort and doesn't plan on a full refund. I don't blame Hal for insisting that the money be returned first. It's obvious from Hal's long record on AzB that he will carry through on returning the cue once he has the money. Advice to Thingie - your reputation on this board is worth more than what you might lose on the cue.
 
Hal said:
Thingie has two choices:

1. Refund me a cash amount that we both agree on and I'll keep the cue.

2. Refund me $2050 (full refund minus the $50 already received) and I'll return the cue.

If we do what's suggested above, I could end up without a cue and cash for months. I'm not doing it. If he want's to salvage his reputation as a seller, he needs to do what's right and issue a full refund. Today.
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Hal,
Why not use scot at proficient for escrow sevices? surely both parties know and trust scot. I hate to say it but refunds are not a right, they are a privliage. Generaly this gets pointed out by judges. If anything he may "owe" you the difference in value only.And thats if you could prove he fraudulantly misrepresented it. Thats very hard to prove at best. It shouldn't be to tough to find a mutualy trusted party, and make the exchange? I agree %100, you should get you'r money back, and in a timely fashion! But you may have to make some reasonable conseccions to make it actualy happen. so that part is going to depend on you to help you'rself. Just my 2 cents worth.

-jay-
 
Ed Young will say:

"Yes the shafts and butt are warped, but I'm unable to determine how it occurred. Yes the cue has a chip in the finish, but I'm unable to determine how or when it occurred."

Then Thingie will say:

"The cue was not in this condition when I shipped it. Therefore, after paying for Ed Young's services, I think it's fair that I refund $1000 instead of $2000."

I'm not stupid.

I have a MS Word document with peoples names that I will not do business with. It seems to get bigger on a weekly basis.
 
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Where is the original listing? Do you have a link to the thread? Just curious to read it if you have it or anyone has it.
Thanks,

BVal
 
Thingie should refund Hal's money. Was the cue insured? If it was damaged during shipping? I don't think insureance would cover the cue getting warped. Because I don't think it can be proven that it was warped in shipping. Must have been warped before it was shipped JMHO.
 
He doesn't want it back because he knows it's a piece of crap. Why else would he not take it back?

Here's the listing: South West cue thread

thingie said:
Up for sale is a 2004 Southwest! Get it now without that 8 year wait!

Beautiful player with 6 Ebony points into a figured BEM forearm, 2 veneers (white-black // inside-out).

Fancy Southwest Rings on A, B, E.

White with black specs pressed linen wrap.

Comes with 2 shafts, one shaft 4 oz and layered tip, other shaft 3.75oz with a block tip and a very slight roll on the shaft. Both shafts are a hair over 13mm and comes with melamine ferrules.

Butt weighs 15.75oz, and the serial number is #359 04. Total weight with either shaft is 19.75oz or 19.5oz.

Cue hits really well like all Southwests do and is flawless except for the roll on one shaft.

Cue is sold!

2004SWCollagesmall-1.jpg
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One of the main reasons I bought this cue is because it was supposedly flawless. A little roll on one shaft wasn't a big deal. It turns out that it's quite a bit of roll. The "good" shaft has minimal roll. And that's not even mentioning the butt.

I can't stand to have cues with nicks in them. I wouldn't have bought this cue had I known about the nick.

Ask bamacues what shape the two cues he bought from me were in. They were well used but completely 100% flawless. If I get a nick, I get it fixed.

But once again, I will keep the cue if we can agree on some cash. I paid too much for this cue to be in the condition that it's in.
 
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you know I expect ebay sellers to not stand behind things, but always thought that was one good thing about buying/selling from here. Guess not.
 
Hal said:
One of the main reasons I bought this cue is because it was supposedly flawless. A little roll on one shaft wasn't a big deal. It turns out that it's quite a bit of roll. The "good" shaft has minimal roll. And that's not even mentioning the butt.

I can't stand to have cues with nicks in them. I wouldn't have bought this cue had I known about the nick.

Ask bamacues what shape the two cues he bought from me were in. They were well used but completely 100% flawless. If I get a nick, I get it fixed.

But once again, I will keep the cue if we can agree on some cash. I paid too much for this cue to be in the condition that it's in.
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I would estimate the repair as follows: $250 for a new handle, $150 for a refinish and re-wrap (which you have to have done with all that work), $150 to $200 for a straight shaft to replace the shaft that's warped too much. You're looking at $600 for the repairs. Even then, there wil be shipping, a waiting period, and the work should be done by SW. If it's not done by SW, this will reduce the value of the cue.

When I read about the cue being in Singapore, that pretty much explains the warpage. Unless it was stored in a climate controlled house or apartment, and I mean with the A/C running day and night, those 90+ degree and 80% humidity will eventually steam a cue to this shape if it's warp prone anyway.

Chris

Ps. I would return the cue. I think Hal should go along with sending the cue to Raemondo as long as Thingie guarantees Hal's refund immediately upon receipt by Raemondo with no questions asked. Trust has gone out the window from both sides of this relationship.
 
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Chris, I guess you're the only one (other than the Seller) who feels this way.

Not only will Hal lose all leverage, he will effectively be out the cue AND his money. How could Hal ever trust Joel to issue a refund when Joel has solicited the help of a "3rd Party". This 3rd party is known to Joel but not known to Hal (I'm not doubting the third party's integrity, only the relationship).

Hal trusted him once, when he used the word "Flawless" to describe the cue.

And Hal trusted that he would issue a refund, as promised. Now he's refusing to do that.

The very concept of using a 3rd Party after the fact is such piss poor business. Did Hal agree to arbitration to solve differences before the transaction was completed? I don't think so.

So Raemondo will accept the cue, take pics and post them here (purpose??), then take the cue to Ed Young to have it evaluated and possibly refinished. Again, to what end??

He would ONLY do all that PRIOR to issuing a refund. This is merely an insulting attempt to further negotiate the terms of the sale, after the transaction has been completed.

Aaron used to try this crap all the time. "Oh, when I said perfect, I forgot about the quarter size hole in the butt which goes through the wood. Well, just send it to Scot and have him bill me."

Oh, and this crapola about getting the money back from the owner?? Another bad tactic. Hal didn't buy it from the owner, he bought it from Thingie. Merely another 3rd party, which should have absolutely no bearing or impact on this deal. That's strictly between Thingie and the owner, don't bring Hal into that one.

Thingie owes Hal a full refund, immediately. Like in the next 24 hours.

Anything short of that, and he's toast around here.

(Before someone living in a dream states that we haven't heard from Thingie - yes, we have. Through Proxy with raemondo)

-von



TATE said:
Ps. I would return the cue. I think Hal should go along with sending the cue to Raemondo as long as Thingie guarantees Hal's refund immediately upon receipt by Raemondo with no questions asked. Trust has gone out the window from both sides of this relationship.
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I read the first thread and now this one.

Someone said stalling and I agree.I suspect the money is spent and hard to replace...just my opinion.

Otherwise I suspect no one would ever know how this went...I think Thingie would kick it back if he could,but can't...and hence the 3rd party.
Or he's flipping Hal the finger lol.

But I think my thought might be right on...
 
South West Repair Rates

TATE said:
I would estimate the repair as follows: $250 for a new handle, $150 for a refinish and re-wrap (which you have to have done with all that work), $150 to $200 for a straight shaft to replace the shaft that's warped too much. You're looking at $600 for the repairs. Even then, there wil be shipping, a waiting period, and the work should be done by SW. If it's not done by SW, this will reduce the value of the cue.

Chris


Just a little info...

South West is now charging $275.00 for a refinish and $275.00 for a new shaft, plus shipping. I have never had to have a handle replaced so I don't know what Laurie is charging for that. It ain't cheap, but it's good.
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1. I'll send the cue to TATE
2. Thingie paypals me $2050
3. I'll paypal TATE $60 to ship the cue to Thingie once the funds are actually in my account.
 
THINGIE,

Your not only trashing yourself but there will be fallout for others who are innocent. Is it fair to them??

Your name, FWIW, is also written in my "book" with temporary ink....if this deplorable situation isn't resolved in 24 hrs it will be permanent.
 
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