When breaking with this layout in straight pool I usually fail to cut the ball enough using follow and cut the ball to much using draw. Any suggestions?
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Follow vs draw on 14.1 break shot
- Thread starter Tennesseejoe
- Start date
Compensate?
Tennesseejoe said:
follow and draw dont have anything to do with making the shot. if you are missing it, it means you are probably trying to hit too hard. if you follow soft to medium speed you can knock the 5 down to the bottom rail and leave the cue ball so you probably have a shot. if you draw slightly (more like stun) you might have to hit a little harder, but you can spread the rack more and leave the cue ball in the center of the table.
I think you're unconsciously exaggerating the effect of throw. With draw, the cue ball is supposed to throw forward a bit so you must overcut it a hair to compensate. Maybe you figured this out on your own and you now automatically overcut all your angled draw shots.
But when you strike the ball pretty firmly, that throw effect is much smaller. I think you need to just line up the shot exactly as you would with centerball, and stroke firmly. The slight effect of throw won't be enough to cause the ball to miss, especially when it's at a nice angle like this where it's facing the widest part of the pocket.
With follow, just aim as you would with centerball too (even with soft follow).
But when you strike the ball pretty firmly, that throw effect is much smaller. I think you need to just line up the shot exactly as you would with centerball, and stroke firmly. The slight effect of throw won't be enough to cause the ball to miss, especially when it's at a nice angle like this where it's facing the widest part of the pocket.
With follow, just aim as you would with centerball too (even with soft follow).
Most of us like to use some draw or follow on these break shots, myself included. But on this layout I like centerball, shooting medium-firm. The cueball looks like its headed between the 2and the 11, catching the 11 first. This should send snowy toward center table after contact.
If you decide to use either draw or follow, the advise by the previous posters have merit.
If you decide to use either draw or follow, the advise by the previous posters have merit.
DJKeys said:
The shot in this diagram is an "in between'er". The two balls are the same distance from the rail so the general rule isn't so easily followed here. You could hit it with either follow or draw (or, perhaps, even a little follow/inside to go two rails back to the center, hitting the bottom rail first - or you could even pound it with a little low/outside English and spin two rails out hitting the side rail first, then the bottom rail. It all depends on where the cue ball is going to hit the pack). I would decide whether to use follow or draw depending on where the cue ball looked to strike the pack. Personally, I like to use follow whenever it's a legitimate option because I tend the control the cue ball better off the rack with follow, but that's my personal preference. Hitting it below center may allow you to strike the rack a little harder and, as a result, have a higher yield than following it. I think you just have to hit this break shot a bunch of different ways and see what you like. Like Babe Cranfield says in his book, your 3 objectives are to make the break shot, knock some balls loose, and free the cue ball from the rack. If you've done all 3, you've hit a good break shot.
To get the aim, my suggestion is just practicing the break shot a bunch of times with just the cueball and the break ball on the table.
These sort of break shots, where the cueball is going to contact the lower part of the rack, are best made with follow. A good follow stroke does a couple of things. It will tend to separate the cueball from the rack, and it will tend to send the cueball to the foot rail. If you draw into the 11-5 pocket and hit the 11 first, there's a good chance you'll scratch in the corner because you'll carom off the 5. If you put follow on it, the carom won't matter because the follow will still send the cueball forward into the rail. If you try it, you'll see what I mean.
I really don't like to use draw when breaking. I've pulled the cuball all the way back to the other end of the table and scratched too many times, or scractched in the corners nearest the rack too. I try to use follow or center. But if you're missing the shot, you need to practice your aim.
Chris
These sort of break shots, where the cueball is going to contact the lower part of the rack, are best made with follow. A good follow stroke does a couple of things. It will tend to separate the cueball from the rack, and it will tend to send the cueball to the foot rail. If you draw into the 11-5 pocket and hit the 11 first, there's a good chance you'll scratch in the corner because you'll carom off the 5. If you put follow on it, the carom won't matter because the follow will still send the cueball forward into the rail. If you try it, you'll see what I mean.
I really don't like to use draw when breaking. I've pulled the cuball all the way back to the other end of the table and scratched too many times, or scractched in the corners nearest the rack too. I try to use follow or center. But if you're missing the shot, you need to practice your aim.
Chris
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The tangent line of the cue ball, after striking your break out ball, is lined up toward the top of the 11 ball. This usually dictates what english you should use on your break out shot (usually, there are always exceptions). So, knowing you are going to strike the top of the 11 ball (and possibly skim the 2), I would suggest using follow with a medium to medium hard stroke. This will cause the cue ball the counter the natural path it will want to take after striking the 11 ball. If hit with draw, the cue ball would come back pretty strongly and there is no guarantee that you could prevent it from scratching in the up-table corner pocket.
The fact that you are missing your break out ball has little to do with your english, because if you were playing nine ball and attempted that same shot (w/o the rack in the way and in your mind's eye) you would probably make the shot. Many times in 14.1, the thought of breaking out the rack is always there and therefore can prevent us from properly executing a routine shot we would normally make 80-90 percent of the time. I would suggest taking extra time an your break shots. Determine ahead of time the english needed by studying how the cb will strike the stack. And most importantly, when you are down and ready to strike the ball, forget the rack is even there. Just concentrate on making the ball, because w/o that, nothing else matters.
As far as overcutting with draw and undercutting with follow, this is a normal tendency for any shot with more than 20-30 degree of angle. This is just an adjustment that you will need to practice and find out for yourself. Remember though, throw and skid will vary based on angle and speed. Experiment and find out what's best for you.
The fact that you are missing your break out ball has little to do with your english, because if you were playing nine ball and attempted that same shot (w/o the rack in the way and in your mind's eye) you would probably make the shot. Many times in 14.1, the thought of breaking out the rack is always there and therefore can prevent us from properly executing a routine shot we would normally make 80-90 percent of the time. I would suggest taking extra time an your break shots. Determine ahead of time the english needed by studying how the cb will strike the stack. And most importantly, when you are down and ready to strike the ball, forget the rack is even there. Just concentrate on making the ball, because w/o that, nothing else matters.
As far as overcutting with draw and undercutting with follow, this is a normal tendency for any shot with more than 20-30 degree of angle. This is just an adjustment that you will need to practice and find out for yourself. Remember though, throw and skid will vary based on angle and speed. Experiment and find out what's best for you.
If I'm seeing the tangent line correctly, the cueball is pointed between the 2 and 11, but my eyes see it favoring the bottom half of the 2. As such I would hit it with not even a tad, but a shade (thanks WBM!) of draw and a firm stroke to bring whitey straight up to the center.
In any case, your decision regarding draw, stun or follow should not be predicated on pocketing the ball, but on where and at what angle the natural path of the cue will cause it to contact the stack. The rule of thumb that I use and now call "the Mikulas rule" is that if the tangent line takes you to the bottom of a ball, use draw to keep it from going to the bottom of the table (unless you're deliberately going to the rail and back uptable), and if it takes you to the top half of the ball, use follow or stun to keep the ball from going too far uptable.
P.S.--It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that studying the precise tangent line and contact point on the rack is of absolutely critical importance. I began to notice that since adopting "the Mikulas rule" I have hardly missed any break shots. Then it came back to me that I read a comment from Mika Immonen some years ago that paying close attention to the tangent line gives him an additional reference point and reinforcement for his shot making. If you're not paying attention to the precise tangent line on your shots, try it and tell me the results!
In any case, your decision regarding draw, stun or follow should not be predicated on pocketing the ball, but on where and at what angle the natural path of the cue will cause it to contact the stack. The rule of thumb that I use and now call "the Mikulas rule" is that if the tangent line takes you to the bottom of a ball, use draw to keep it from going to the bottom of the table (unless you're deliberately going to the rail and back uptable), and if it takes you to the top half of the ball, use follow or stun to keep the ball from going too far uptable.
P.S.--It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that studying the precise tangent line and contact point on the rack is of absolutely critical importance. I began to notice that since adopting "the Mikulas rule" I have hardly missed any break shots. Then it came back to me that I read a comment from Mika Immonen some years ago that paying close attention to the tangent line gives him an additional reference point and reinforcement for his shot making. If you're not paying attention to the precise tangent line on your shots, try it and tell me the results!
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VIProfessor said:
Twice in one day I agree and I haven't been drinking today. However it looks to me like the CB would hit the top/right side of the 11 first. I would shoot it as VIP described, but perhaps with a little right, very little, so the CB will roll more to the center of the table. Otherwise, the CB could go back the side rail after hitting the 11/2 pocket.
JMHO
Mike
Thanks to all who have responded. After trying some of your suggestions I found that I am intimidated just by the break shot. When I think of the shot as a 9 ball shot it usually goes.
Your suggetions whether to use follow or draw based on the tangent line, etc., were very interesting. Thanks again.
Your suggetions whether to use follow or draw based on the tangent line, etc., were very interesting. Thanks again.
Tennesseejoe said:
Everyone goes through this when they first start playing the game. Hell, even after they've been playing a while! After a while you'll start to feel more confident on the break shot. Honestly, I feel more confident about making the ball now when I have somewhat of a severe back-cut break shot than I do with the same exact angle playing 9-ball. You start to see that angle so often when you play a lot of straight pool that it becomes somewhat second nature.