Follow with Shallow Break Shots

Dan White

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This was part of a discussion on another thread with an unrelated title, so I thought I'd reproduce part of it and see if others care to comment. I don't know why but I couldn't get Cuetable to accept the position of the cue ball, so I used the 8 ball. :rolleyes: The discussion below shows two sides of the story. What do you think?

CueTable Help



I made this diagram specifically to make a point. I was responding to Jim (strtshtr) saying he would rule out a follow shot:


firstly, i'd rule out a follow stroke. i would feel as though the chances of scratching in the corner were too great. seems like if it doesn't go directly into the corner, one of the bals in the stack comes free to provide a perfect carom for the scratch.
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I think follow is the best choice in this situation. The trick is you have to know where the cue ball is going to contact the rack. There is a rule of thumb we all know that you hit draw on a shallow break (as I have diagrammed), and follow on a sharper angle. Conventional wisdom says you will scratch with follow on a shallow break. However, if you know where the cue ball is going, then you CANNOT scratch when hitting the high side of any ball. When you hit the pack it is like hitting a wall, so stun will cause the cue ball to bounce back in the direction it came from.

The only way I could see a problem with follow is on a slow table or sticky conditions. You have a shallow break so a lot of the energy will be lost to the object ball. If the table is fast, I'd use follow and a firm hit to drive the cue ball through the middle of the pack. For a slower table, I'd hit just above center to get some bounce back and then park the cue ball. Too much follow on a slow table and you might get stuck in a cluster.

The more angle you have on this shot (as in not so shallow) the more follow I'd use because the cue ball will have more energy and will make a b-line for the head rail. Also, at least on my table, I get the best breaks when going into that second ball from the top. I can move out 7 to 10 balls with a medium stroke.


from the lines drawn, it appears as though a draw stroke would give you a contact point with the "underside" of the 15, which should help prevent the cueball from travelling uptable too much. that would probably be my choice, using a bit of left english to help make the ball as well as giving the cueball some assistance in "climbing" out of the stack.
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I think this can be tricky because so much depends on the speed of the shot. With a firm hit, which I think you need here, the cue ball goes along the tangent line no matter what you put on the cue ball (well, ok, maybe you can change the angle just a little). If you want to play a more defensive break shot and play for a shot on the 14 in the side, then this might work. I guess in that case if you are soft stroking it you can even draw into the top of the 3 accidentally and still not move too far. Why bother though, I still think follow is best.


if you have ever seen joe tucker's instructional videos, he always seems to hit this sort of shot with inside english (right in this case) and draw. the ball goes to the side rail and kicks to the center of the table, perfectly under control. makes me sick to watch it, lol.
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I have his book around somewhere but I might have to get the video. Tony Robles likes this shot as well, but it won't work very easily on my table, which seems to play a lot slower than tables in pool halls. If I'm going into the bottom side of the 3 ball I like high inside english to bring the cue ball out to the middle of the table where I can see the balls that were broken away from the rack. It doesn't seem to get caromed into a scratch on this ball. To me, that seems to happen more if I'm hitting the bottom of the top or third balls oddly enough. What does happen is it caroms off the 3, then scrapes into the 13 below it and follows around the corner.
i'd be interested to hear what some more accomplished players would say on the subject
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Me too, but I don't think they will see this discussion based on the title of the thread. The good thing is you can try it out on the pool table and see what works.
 
I was practicing a similar shot to see how softly I could shoot and still get the break to work well. (The "European style" here would be to draw the cue ball off the rack to the head rail and back to the center of the table -- I start missing the shot when I try that.)

I set up the shot with the balls in exactly the same positions each time. It was a little different in that the object ball was just a little higher so the cue ball was landing close to a simultaneous hit on two balls in the rack. Depending on my speed and pocket entry it would hit one ball or the other (15 or 3) first. The 15 first gave most excellent results with soft follow. When I hit the 3 first, it was a perfect "side of the rack" safety. Because the hit on the rack was so close to the dividing line, I couldn't be sure which would happen.

For this case -- unsure of contact point -- I think you have to try an approach that will work either way. Draw is probably the solution, since when I cranked up the follow speed I would sometimes get the double-kiss scratch into the corner.

In any case, I think it is very worthwhile spending 15 minutes to half an hour on a shot like this with the balls in the same positions each time. Part of what you will learn is how to judge the carom angle into the rack -- it's easy to make a half-inch error in judgement if you're not careful and that could be critical.
 
FWIW, my personal opinion on this shot is that follow is suicide. You'd be asking for trouble with too many ways for something to go wrong since you are hitting too high on the side of the rack. I'd draw enough to get out to the center of the table.
 
3andstop said:
I'd draw enough to get out to the center of the table.
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How would you do that on slow cloth? It seems to me if you know where the contact point is, then there is no need for concern. If I have to hit it harder due to slow cloth, I'm probably 50/50 to end up on the head rail. That was my main reasoning for advocating a follow stroke. If you know the cue ball path you can give it a good stroke and open them up.
 
The 15 first gave most excellent results with soft follow. When I hit the 3 first, it was a perfect "side of the rack" safety. Because the hit on the rack was so close to the dividing line, I couldn't be sure which would happen.
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Did you hit soft enough that the cue ball didn't reach the foot rail and/or corner pocket?

For this case -- unsure of contact point -- I think you have to try an approach that will work either way. Draw is probably the solution, since when I cranked up the follow speed I would sometimes get the double-kiss scratch into the corner.
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Glad you mentioned that. When I can't tell what side of the crack between the balls I'm going to contact, I usually hit with a little draw, medium speed and cross my fingers. There has to be a better strategy, expecially since it's hard to shoot with crossed fingers. :smile:
 
Dan White said:
Did you hit soft enough that the cue ball didn't reach the foot rail and/or corner pocket?

Glad you mentioned that. When I can't tell what side of the crack between the balls I'm going to contact, I usually hit with a little draw, medium speed and cross my fingers. There has to be a better strategy, expecially since it's hard to shoot with crossed fingers. :smile:
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No, with a soft hit there was enough push down the table from the first ball struck that the cue ball would follow to the end rail and back out two or three diamonds. I'm not talking super-soft on the shot.

When Crane had an even shallower break shot, or one that was difficult to reach, his standard play was to follow but not as far as the cushion. There was a secondary break shot like clockwork under the rack.

I think the main solution for Irving Crane and such players was to plan for and get a thinner cut for the break shot. A 60-degree cut (which looks paper-thin if you're not used to them) was no cause of concern to those players.

As for the crossed-finger thing, it works better if you use an open bridge.
 
Dan White said:
How would you do that on slow cloth? It seems to me if you know where the contact point is, then there is no need for concern. If I have to hit it harder due to slow cloth, I'm probably 50/50 to end up on the head rail. That was my main reasoning for advocating a follow stroke. If you know the cue ball path you can give it a good stroke and open them up.
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As I said, that's what I'd do. We all have different strokes, different touch and shoot certain shots with a different level of confidence based on how we like to hit them.

I can't see where slow cloth would hinder getting above the balls with some draw. From the diagram, it looks very easy to skip off the balls up to the center of the table with a soft to medium draw stroke. Let the balls go one way and the CB the other.

Of course your ultimate goal may play into your thoughts also. Are you trying to win a game or run balls. You may get a bigger spread following, but that result is matched IMO, with higher risk as well.
 
When Crane had an even shallower break shot, or one that was difficult to reach, his standard play was to follow but not as far as the cushion. There was a secondary break shot like clockwork under the rack.
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Was it anything like this? I "discovered" this one by accident. It works a surprising percentage of the time. Cue ball never reaches bottom rail. (There are 2 pages).

CueTable Help



I think the main solution for Irving Crane and such players was to plan for and get a thinner cut for the break shot. A 60-degree cut (which looks paper-thin if you're not used to them) was no cause of concern to those players.
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I scratched my head for a long time trying to figure out why pro's don't break like that anymore. I figure they don't need to with fast tables but, boy, it really takes the need for speed out of the shot. I guess I'm still not sure I understand why so many break shots are so shallow.
 
Dan White said:
Was it anything like this? I "discovered" this one by accident. It works a surprising percentage of the time. Cue ball never reaches bottom rail. (There are 2 pages). ...
I scratched my head for a long time trying to figure out why pro's don't break like that anymore. I figure they don't need to with fast tables but, boy, it really takes the need for speed out of the shot. I guess I'm still not sure I understand why so many break shots are so shallow.
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Yes, that's what I meant about the break for a very shallow break shot. It was always with maximum control, and a good break ball usually appeared. The trick is to get the cue ball close to the end rail so that any ball between the rack and the rail will be a break shot.

It could be that the modern players are doing the break shot wrong. Or, it could be that the old style was more suited to slower cloth and 5x10 tables. By "wrong" I don't mean they are evil people who should be horse-whipped; I mean that the style has not had enough testing under fire to evolve against other styles of break strategy and if such testing took place, the small-angle super-power break might be supplanted. Corey Deuel likes side pocket breaks and will work to move a ball into side pocket position. I heard that Greenleaf very often would use the side pocket but I have no idea which shot.
 
I think coming forward on this shot spells trouble. As Bob said, many Euros come back on this---- but how far back depends on the speed of the shot and the conditions of the table.

In a zero humidity situation, I can see wanting to draw back to the center-- slightly popping the rack open. With any kind of dirty balls/humidity, I like to shoot this shot as hard as a 9ball break (almost) and suck that CB back into the kitchen, hit the short rail and spin 2 rails to center.

Otherwise, subconsciously it's too easy to want to get a little more umph into the ball and draw into the kitchen.... and STAY there.... which, of course, sucks.
 
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Looks like I'm in the minority

I think the feedback I'm getting in this thread goes along these lines: It's too hard to determine exactly where the cue ball is going to contact the pack, so on a shallow break you need to hit with draw "just in case." Play conservatively, in other words, so you don't scratch by mistake.

I can agree to one point: IF it isn't clear where the cue ball is contacting the pack, I agree that some draw makes sense, taking the scratch out of play. HOWEVER, I don't think just because a break shot is a little shallow that I automatically have to hit draw. There are plenty of shallow break shots where it is clear that the cue ball is going to hit the top of the ball in the pack. IMO it is a huge wasted opportunity to just bail out on the shot and hit draw. Pop it with a little high center and the cue ball will park right where you need it with plenty of control.

I also think if you aren't sure where the cue ball will hit on this shot, you might want to brush up on figuring out the cue ball path.

/Rant off
 
Yes, that is Peter Fisher. He posted two videos on his youtube channel with this comment:

I blew the dust off this old video I made back in 1996. I was selling Long Island Billiards then and wanted to tape a few straight pool runs before I retired my stick.
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"Retired my stick". What a loss.
 
JohnnyP said:
Yes, that is Peter Fisher. He posted two videos on his youtube channel with this comment:



"Retired my stick". What a loss.
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I Agree, i had the pleasure i seeing Pete play numerous times....Him and Scotty Nacovski were 2 of Long Island's Best !!!!

-Steve
 
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