Forfeit One's Integrity to Win a Game?

[PaulieB]

Just so I'm sure I'm reading this right:

• There is no specific language in these modified rules that would ALLOW the coach to place the cueball.
  
• Conversely, there is no specific language in these modified rules that DISALLOW the coach to place the cueball.

Essentially, there's a flaw in the rules and, while it sucks, you were on the receiving end of it. If there is nothing specifically stating that the coach is NOT allowed to place the cueball, then the coach didn't do anything wrong. He didn't break a rule.

So no one really sacrificed their integrity to win a match. They just did what was, more or less, within the confines of the rules as written. I know you'll likely think that the players in question are taking this all too seriously as they are "sacrificing their integirty for a win" in a league match, but then again... you walked out, started a thread on a pool forum, and are quitting the league. So maybe you're BOTH just taking this a little bit too seriously.



No. She's not. She's simply playing by the rules. If there is nothing stating that the coach CAN'T do what he did, there was no rule broken. Period. Its a loophole, sure. And you just happened to be the victim of it. But since no rule was broken, your anger is misguided. Frankly, if all of these players are as competent and capable as you suggest, placing the cueball isn't really that advantageous. The player in question still has to shoot the ball.

Is there anything specifically stated in these modified rules that as part of the coaching, the captain couldn't also take the shot for her? Is there anything specifically stated that Yuri Geller couldn't help her by telekinetically moving the balls into the pockets? Rules can't cover every last option, that's why there is common sense.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Is there anything specifically stated in these modified rules that as part of the coaching, the captain couldn't also take the shot for her? Is there anything specifically stated that Yuri Geller couldn't help her by telekinetically moving the balls into the pockets? Rules can't cover every last option, that's why there is common sense.

It was pointed out to me today that in the BCAPL rules, it does not specifically state anywhere that the incoming player must play the CB where it lays...using this logic, one could conceivably take BIH each time.

Yeah, common sense would be nice.

 

[dr9ball]

The player in question still has to shoot the ball.

This is the most relevant and important point regarding that game.
The player shot the shot and won the game. Sometimes it's too easy to look for a rule to cover our proverbial a$$es when we mess up and give the other player ball in hand.


Losing sucks. The opposing player was given an opportunity to win the game with ball and hand. The coach did not shoot the shot. The player did.

Ah! Logic so refreshing.

I despise timeouts and would like to see them done away with but that's not likely to happen.

 

[RRfireblade]

Is there anything specifically stated in these modified rules that as part of the coaching, the captain couldn't also take the shot for her? Is there anything specifically stated that Yuri Geller couldn't help her by telekinetically moving the balls into the pockets? Rules can't cover every last option, that's why there is common sense.

In fact there are absolutely rules that cover typical rotation of play, how each inning proceeds , when you can and can not 'touch' the cue ball and all facets of play etc. The common sense part comes in to knowing how and where to look and apply the rules.

However, none of this matters.

The match is over.

No one was ever shown to have cheated.

There is no ground to stand.

To that point....its debatable as to whether any foul was even "correctly" called and it is crystal clear and with out arguement that NO ONE approached the table at the time of the incident and started an inquiry to the event in question. On the contrary , the party of contention NEVER even saw the game ball shot and pocketed.

It's quite possible that the team in question was not aware that thier actions may have been considered in violation. It's been shown in this thread alone that there is a TON of interpretation and confusion about how the rules may or may not govern this action. It's also been shown that in certain by laws this action is totally within the rules. To immediately cast assumption that thier intent was purely motivated by deception and cheating ways shows me alot more about the character of the people that would make that assumption. Not to mention when at a point where the game and match was 100% in thier own hands to win and theres was nothiing to gain by finding any 'loophole'. When I see someone do something wrong my first assumption would be that perhaps they just dont know or unaware of the rules. I'd rather believe that people are inherently fair and good as I try to believe that of myself.

The CORRECT and SPORTSMANLIKE way to handle this and any like situation would have been to approach the table and state that you feel there was a foul committed and you would like to get a rules call on it and the go from there. That's how it's done in league and in any Tourny I've played in. It's YOUR responsibility to make yourself heard. Not anyone elses. If you sit by and let play continue un-interrupted there is no one at fault but you.

IMO , the way this entire scenerio has been handled was in very poor taste and very poor sportsman like behavior. I'm very glad that those that feel this is an acceptable way to 'aire' your grevance will no longer be involved in league play. I'll be glad to never run into this type of behavior in person and hopefully others will see this and learn something from it as well.

I wish you all the best.

( clicks 'unsubscribe' )

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

That's true, Joe. But IMO, it just illustrates my point. The "mark your pocket" rule is a great way for a dishonorable player (or captain) to steal a game. When I played APA and didn't have a gentleman's agreement about marking, I would remind my opponent to mark the pocket. Used to drive some of my players crazy

One Iron, maybe we should just agree to disagree on this one OK.

Maybe you read my post a couple of pages over. I hope so. That is the way I roll and my team mates as well. When posters use the words, cheater, dishonorable etc, then I feel the need to defend my integrity somewhat.

I didn't make the Pocket Patch rule, it was in use 20 some odd years ago when I first started and is still in use today. Most teams these days will play call 8 and as I mentioned, my preference too. As the captain, I always ask before we start, "mark the pocket or call". If they choose to use a coaster, then I expect them to do so as it their choice for the set.

You might think it is a stupid rule and you're entitled to your opinion.
Why that rule was implemented in the first place is your guess is as good as mine.

The incident I was referring to was a team that was playing out of a bar owned by the Hells Angels. They were all rock solid and not overly friendly.
I called a coaching foul on the player as someone that was just watching the game told him to mark the pocket. Tell me that under those or different circumstances wouldn't have POd you off as well. It wasn't as much losing the game or trying to win one on a technicality as much as what I had explained.

I also have to consider my team mates too. Most of us in our city know each other well from many years of playing against each other. With the exception of a few players and a couple of teams in our division, everyone is on a very friendly basis with each other. Very seldom any fights or animosity over games.

Like yourself, not long ago, I reminded a player to mark his pocket. He won. I had to answer to my team mates for that one (Hint, they weren't happy with my decision), hence, having to consider my team mates feelings and opinions on certain aspects of our nights out too.
Have a great week Buddy.

 

[mia]

Is there anything specifically stated in these modified rules that as part of the coaching, the captain couldn't also take the shot for her? Is there anything specifically stated that Yuri Geller couldn't help her by telekinetically moving the balls into the pockets? Rules can't cover every last option, that's why there is common sense.

You expect people in competition against one another to govern themselves using common sense? That's just ridiculous. There are a number of people in this thread who agree with Lisa. There are also a number of people who agree with Marie's Husband. At this point, I'm inclined to think it's either a fairly even split if not leaning in Marie's Husband's favor. But if there is no vast majority, how can there be 'common' sense???

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Mia, maybe not as much common sense as common decency toward a fellow player. I believe all Lisa was trying to get across was she expected considerably more from the caliber of players that she was playing that evening.

 

[Marie's husband]

Mia, maybe not as much common sense as common decency toward a fellow player. I believe all Lisa was trying to get across was she expected considerably more from the caliber of players that she was playing that evening.

OK, I do agree with you on what she expected, but what did she bring to the situation to prove that it was a foul if she actually called a foul.

Its been over 4 days and yet there is still no definate answer to prove that it was a foul. A lot of common sense and loophole talk, but that is not how rules are written or enforced.

As far as the caliber of players, like I said in another thread, they are B players that most play league once a week and enter two tournaments a year and the tournaments they enter do not use these league rules.

I honestly dont think that anyone did anything deliberate to cheat or anything. It is all a misunderstanding of the rules that someone blew out of proportion.

 

[OneIron]

One Iron, maybe we should just agree to disagree on this one OK.

Maybe you read my post a couple of pages over. I hope so. That is the way I roll and my team mates as well. When posters use the words, cheater, dishonorable etc, then I feel the need to defend my integrity somewhat.

I didn't make the Pocket Patch rule, it was in use 20 some odd years ago when I first started and is still in use today. Most teams these days will play call 8 and as I mentioned, my preference too. As the captain, I always ask before we start, "mark the pocket or call". If they choose to use a coaster, then I expect them to do so as it their choice for the set.

You might think it is a stupid rule and you're entitled to your opinion.
Why that rule was implemented in the first place is your guess is as good as mine.

The incident I was referring to was a team that was playing out of a bar owned by the Hells Angels. They were all rock solid and not overly friendly.
I called a coaching foul on the player as someone that was just watching the game told him to mark the pocket. Tell me that under those or different circumstances wouldn't have POd you off as well. It wasn't as much losing the game or trying to win one on a technicality as much as what I had explained.

I also have to consider my team mates too. Most of us in our city know each other well from many years of playing against each other. With the exception of a few players and a couple of teams in our division, everyone is on a very friendly basis with each other. Very seldom any fights or animosity over games.

Like yourself, not long ago, I reminded a player to mark his pocket. He won. I had to answer to my team mates for that one (Hint, they weren't happy with my decision), hence, having to consider my team mates feelings and opinions on certain aspects of our nights out too.
Have a great week Buddy.

Sorry about that. I wasn't questioning your integrity. I probably came across differently than I intended. I've just never liked the rule and I guess that came through in my tone. (I've played in some of those bars, too).

 

[Big Perm]

Integrity......what's that.....some kind of alien language???? Surely you've been here long enough to know better

People can do whatever they want....cheat....steal.......there will be a group here to defend them.....I find it best to just keep a mental note on their character and move along.....if they ever come around asking for money, pull that mental note out of the old binder and tell them to move along....

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Thanks and no problem, all is good.

 

[DEXTER]

APA rules

j. The player or his coach (during a coaching timeout)
may place the cue ball in a ball-in-hand
situation. The same rule regarding placing the
cue ball applies to the coach as applies to the
player. If the player, or coach fouls in the process
of placing the cue ball, it will be ball-in-hand for
the opponent. Therefore, it should be the player's
choice if he wishes to place the cue ball or allow
his coach to do so.
AND
f. Receiving illegal aid (coaching from person(s)
other than the coach) during your turn at the
table. It is not considered illegal aid to remind a
player to mark the pocket when shooting the
8-ball, or to tell a player a foul has occurred.
Anyone may do so.
As you see anyone can remind a player to mark the pocket for the 8-ball.
Of course these are APA rules but the OP said that she had never seen such rules in any league. Have you read the rules?

 

[ccshrimper]

She didn't call foul and didn't get the attention of her own coach or other players until the game was over. You can't call a foul AFTER the game, that's all the opposing captain said. She or her captain should have stopped play until the rule was clarified. Once the 8 ball is made, the game is over!

The captain placing the cue ball made no difference on the outcome of the game. If he would've pointed to the exact spot and the player put it there, it would be the same result. She lost a game and blew up because nobody listened to her until after the game was over and she didn't get her way. Typical temper tantrum of someone who's too competitive to play in a fun league and wants to win at any cost or any way possible.

 

[Bamacues]

j. The player or his coach (during a coaching timeout)
may place the cue ball in a ball-in-hand
situation. The same rule regarding placing the
cue ball applies to the coach as applies to the
player. If the player, or coach fouls in the process
of placing the cue ball, it will be ball-in-hand for
the opponent. Therefore, it should be the player's
choice if he wishes to place the cue ball or allow
his coach to do so.

An important note here is that in APA, especially in higher level tournaments, only one of the two can place the cue. If the player places the cue, the coach can not pick the ball up and replace it. If the coach places the ball and removes his/her hand, then he/she can not pick the ball up again and replace it.

I am not familiar with BCA...never played it. With APA, you have the rulebook, which is rather thin and somewhat sketchy. There are also the APA Bylaws book which the officials have access to, which go into much great explanation and clarification of the rules. I am relatively certain that, somewhere, BCA has a book such as APA for clarification of issues.

Joe

 

[Hierovision]

I am getting responses via PM and am being told that that since the issue of the coach touching the CB and resetting the shot is not addressed either for or against in the modifications allowing coaching (as it must) then it defaults back to BCAPL rules for singles play which clearly states that ONLY the incoming player with BIH is allowed to touch and position the CB.

I'm going to side with you on the actual rules, for sure, considering the above. It doesn't specify in the local rules, and therefore defaults to the BCAPL ruling. Very good point.

However, the way to handle this was to call "foul" and ask for a ruling from the LO/president, like I said before. If they continued to shoot, ask the LO/president to forfeit them!!!

Make your decision on whether to stay in the league or not based on the LO/president's response.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I'm going to side with you on the actual rules, for sure, considering the above. It doesn't specify in the local rules, and therefore defaults to the BCAPL ruling. Very good point.

However, the way to handle this was to call "foul" and ask for a ruling from the LO/president, like I said before. If they continued to shoot, ask the LO/president to forfeit them!!!

Make your decision on whether to stay in the league or not based on the LO/president's response.

I have been pretty clear from the start...I called the freakin' foul immediately. It wasn't my game to be pissed off about losing; I called the foul as the co-captain, because I felt a foul was committed. Your first clue, had you read the entire thread, was when Kimmy claimed that I didn't call the until after 3 shots had passed. Shows you how much she was paying attention, as there was only the 1 ball (theirs) and the 8 ball left. Where's the 3 shots?!

At this point, I could really care less about this or the league any longer....I formally quit last night. No point to rules if you NEVER enforce them. No point to a Grievance Committee if one is disallowed to ever file one. This is not just referring to my situation...there have been instances in the past where the was a flagrant violation of a rule, and a grievance was requested and disallowed. I have never seen, in my 5 years, on and off, of playing in this league where a grievance requested was ever granted, even when following the requirements to do so.

There is absolutely NO transparency within this league...no financial statements are provided to the general membership, as is required by law as operating as a non-profit....draws for divisions are held behind closed doors...again a violation of operating as a non-profit in the state of WA. I would venture to guess that they never even file with the Secretary of State every year, as is required by law. Believe it or not, even rule changes must be recorded with the state. Not too difficult to look up the statutes for operating a non-profit organization in the state of WA. The Womens League here does all of these things, and is very transparent with the general membership with all aspects of the league.

And people wonder where the term 'dirty pool' came from.......

 

[mia]

I have been pretty clear from the start...I called the freakin' foul immediately. It wasn't my game to be pissed off about losing; I called the foul as the co-captain, because I felt a foul was committed. Your first clue, had you read the entire thread, was when Kimmy claimed that I didn't call the until after 3 shots had passed. Shows you how much she was paying attention, as there was only the 1 ball (theirs) and the 8 ball left. Where's the 3 shots?!

At this point, I could really care less about this or the league any longer....I formally quit last night. No point to rules if you NEVER enforce them. No point to a Grievance Committee if one is disallowed to ever file one. This is not just referring to my situation...there have been instances in the past where the was a flagrant violation of a rule, and a grievance was requested and disallowed. I have never seen, in my 5 years, on and off, of playing in this league where a grievance requested was ever granted, even when following the requirements to do so.

There is absolutely NO transparency within this league...no financial statements are provided to the general membership, as is required by law as operating as a non-profit....draws for divisions are held behind closed doors...again a violation of operating as a non-profit in the state of WA. I would venture to guess that they never even file with the Secretary of State every year, as is required by law. Believe it or not, even rule changes must be recorded with the state. Not too difficult to look up the statutes for operating a non-profit organization in the state of WA. The Womens League here does all of these things, and is very transparent with the general membership with all aspects of the league.

And people wonder where the term 'dirty pool' came from.......

Lisa,
Again, don't take this the wrong way but... I think you're taking this whole thing WAY too seriously. The fact that you've gone so far as to investigate/google state laws as they pertain to your league, all based on a debatable foul that resulted in a loss of game??? It kind of nullifies your claim that you could really care less. Its just a friggin' pool league.

I think quitting may just have been the best thing for you.

 

[DEXTER]

Taken from BCA rulebook

1.41 Coaching
It is common for Administrative Authorities to modify or relax coaching rules during doubles or team play. It is also common to have controversies caused by that situation. When coaching rules have been modified, you must be sure that you understand the modifications and that you take care not to violate them.

 

[Marie's husband]

1.41 Coaching
It is common for Administrative Authorities to modify or relax coaching rules during doubles or team play. It is also common to have controversies caused by that situation. When coaching rules have been modified, you must be sure that you understand the modifications and that you take care not to violate them.

Yeah, I just laughed when I initially saw this rule a few days ago. Its a warning from the BCAPL that this situation will happen if your league does modify the rules without having clear and precise modified rules within a league in concerns to coaching.

Hopefully some other leagues will learn from this thread and review there rules so that this wont happen to them.

 

[Cory in DC]

An important note here is that in APA, especially in higher level tournaments, only one of the two can place the cue. If the player places the cue, the coach can not pick the ball up and replace it. If the coach places the ball and removes his/her hand, then he/she can not pick the ball up again and replace it.

I am not familiar with BCA...never played it. With APA, you have the rulebook, which is rather thin and somewhat sketchy. There are also the APA Bylaws book which the officials have access to, which go into much great explanation and clarification of the rules. I am relatively certain that, somewhere, BCA has a book such as APA for clarification of issues.

Joe

What you're describing must be a local bylaw. That's not how it has worked in my experience. As a clear example, sometimes you don't call a coach until *after* you see where the player is putting the cue ball. At that point, for example, the coach will often pick it up and place it. That's not a foul in the national rules. I've also seen the coach place it and then the player makes an adjustment. Again, no foul.

The APA rule states:

The player or his coach (during a coaching timeout) may place the cue ball in a ball-in-hand situation. The same rule regarding placing the cue ball applies to the coach as applies to the player. If the player, or coach fouls in the process of placing the cue ball, it will be ball-in-hand for the opponent. Therefore, it should be the player's choice if he wishes to place the cue ball or allow his coach to do so.​

Anyway, as a general point, if the rules allow for coaching at the level of pointing to a spot and saying "put the cue ball here" then allowing the coach to place the CB makes a lot of sense -- you get to the exact same place a lot quicker. No need for "a little to the left, now back .3 inches. No, that's too far." When the APA made this rule change, it shortened timeouts and that was a good thing.

Of course, just because this version makes sense, at least to me, doesn't mean that it applies to the case in question. Still, with this much ambiguity, calls will usually break in favor of the shooter.

Cory