Thanks,
Yes I would have thought the ball would remain down. Did the guy foul by knocking that ball in with the butt of his cue??
Fouls on ALL BALLS!
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
Yes I would have thought the ball would remain down. Did the guy foul by knocking that ball in with the butt of his cue??
My guess
IMHO, The 3 ball gets returned to its position based on the non-shooter's knowledge of the ball's former position (He has the right to restore). The butt-bump is a foul if the CB or OB travels within the 6 inch or so radius from the 3 ball as stated in the BCA rules. I believe that this is not a foul with or without a ref present ( unless the last sentence occured ).
Also a ref might call this as deliberate, in which case it is a foul.
Our league players would never do that deliberately, right ?
IMHO, The 3 ball gets returned to its position based on the non-shooter's knowledge of the ball's former position (He has the right to restore). The butt-bump is a foul if the CB or OB travels within the 6 inch or so radius from the 3 ball as stated in the BCA rules. I believe that this is not a foul with or without a ref present ( unless the last sentence occured ).
Also a ref might call this as deliberate, in which case it is a foul.
Our league players would never do that deliberately, right ?
In our 8-ball league, we play all ball fouls, regardless of before or after stroke, whether the ball actually moves or not, etc. Simply put, you touch something you're not suppsed to, it's a foul and your opponent gets ball in hand. It works well in our league because of the fact that there are teams, there are multiple sets of eyes on each game, so there's rarely a dispute. And when there's the situation for a potential foul (a heavy-set player leaning over the table for example), everyone seems to watch extra carefully.
You don't have this problem with "all ball fouls." You touch a ball and you have fouled, plain and simple. The ball that was touched is left where it is. This rule has worked pretty well for the last 75-80 years in Straight Pool championships played right here in America. It was when we started playing 9-Ball and One Pocket tournaments (early 60's) and using "poolroom" rules, that problems began to arise. It is time to bring 9-Ball, Ten Ball and One Pocket tournaments in America into the 21st Century!
deleted... duplicate with wrong quote
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BCA Pool League rules
"Cue Ball fouls only"
Opponent has the right to leave the ball in the pocket or replace it. In a bar box that has a locked return, it will probably stay down.
1.33 Disturbed Balls (Cue Ball Fouls Only) (AR p. 79)
1. It is not a foul if you accidentally touch or disturb a single object ball with any part of your body, clothing or equipment, unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot.
2. "Effect on the outcome of the shot" means that either the disturbed ball makes contact with any ball set in motion as a result of the shot, or that the base of any ball set in motion as a result of the shot passes through the area originally occupied by the disturbed ball. That area is defined as a circle approximately seven inches in diameter centered on the position originally occupied by the disturbed ball (see Diagram 7).
3. If there is no effect on the outcome of the shot, your opponent has the option to leave the disturbed ball where it came to rest or to restore it to its original position. If the disturbed ball is to be restored, a referee may restore it, your opponent may restore it, or you may restore it with your opponent’s permission. It is a foul if you touch or restore the disturbed ball without your opponent's permission.
4. It is a foul if there is an effect on the outcome of the shot. Your opponent has no restoration option.
5. If you disturb a single object ball and, in the same shot, commit a foul that is not related to the disturbed ball: you are penalized for the foul, and your opponent has the restoration option for the disturbed ball that was not involved in the foul.
6. If a single disturbed ball falls into a pocket with no effect on the outcome of the shot, your opponent has the restoration option. However, if the disturbed ball is designated by specific game rules as the game winning ball, it must be restored.
"Cue Ball fouls only"
Opponent has the right to leave the ball in the pocket or replace it. In a bar box that has a locked return, it will probably stay down.
1.33 Disturbed Balls (Cue Ball Fouls Only) (AR p. 79)
1. It is not a foul if you accidentally touch or disturb a single object ball with any part of your body, clothing or equipment, unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot.
2. "Effect on the outcome of the shot" means that either the disturbed ball makes contact with any ball set in motion as a result of the shot, or that the base of any ball set in motion as a result of the shot passes through the area originally occupied by the disturbed ball. That area is defined as a circle approximately seven inches in diameter centered on the position originally occupied by the disturbed ball (see Diagram 7).
3. If there is no effect on the outcome of the shot, your opponent has the option to leave the disturbed ball where it came to rest or to restore it to its original position. If the disturbed ball is to be restored, a referee may restore it, your opponent may restore it, or you may restore it with your opponent’s permission. It is a foul if you touch or restore the disturbed ball without your opponent's permission.
4. It is a foul if there is an effect on the outcome of the shot. Your opponent has no restoration option.
5. If you disturb a single object ball and, in the same shot, commit a foul that is not related to the disturbed ball: you are penalized for the foul, and your opponent has the restoration option for the disturbed ball that was not involved in the foul.
6. If a single disturbed ball falls into a pocket with no effect on the outcome of the shot, your opponent has the restoration option. However, if the disturbed ball is designated by specific game rules as the game winning ball, it must be restored.
Thanks. I guess I would be in favor of all ball fouls too then as it is just sick and wrong to remain shooting after knocking another ball around (not to mention into the pocket) with the butt of your cue. I guess by those rules then you could knock your cue stick into any balls you want without any penalty?????
Deliberate Fouls
No, you can't but I suggest your team review the rules to avoid the ugliness in the future. Have a copy handy during your league matches.
Tom in Cincy gave you the rules on disturbed balls. There are more rules that cover unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. Anyone that intentionally is disturbing balls commits a foul.
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx
Above is a link to the rules for BCA rules.
Section 1.40 covers deliberate fouls including penalties.
Here is an excerpt:
...Penalties: in addition to the foul penalty for violations involving object balls: First violation of (e-f): your opponent may have the ball spotted, placed along the lip of the pocket, pocketed, or left in position. It is loss of game if the ball involved is the game winning ball. (8-Ball exception for first violation: if the 8-ball is involved on the break shot, it is a foul only). Second and subsequent violations involving an object ball or the cue ball during a match: loss of game.
Don't let the uninformed direct the outcome of gameplay.
No, you can't but I suggest your team review the rules to avoid the ugliness in the future. Have a copy handy during your league matches.
Tom in Cincy gave you the rules on disturbed balls. There are more rules that cover unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. Anyone that intentionally is disturbing balls commits a foul.
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx
Above is a link to the rules for BCA rules.
Section 1.40 covers deliberate fouls including penalties.
Here is an excerpt:
...Penalties: in addition to the foul penalty for violations involving object balls: First violation of (e-f): your opponent may have the ball spotted, placed along the lip of the pocket, pocketed, or left in position. It is loss of game if the ball involved is the game winning ball. (8-Ball exception for first violation: if the 8-ball is involved on the break shot, it is a foul only). Second and subsequent violations involving an object ball or the cue ball during a match: loss of game.
Don't let the uninformed direct the outcome of gameplay.
I understand. Your proposal is not at all about fairness or writing a wrong. It is about avoiding arguments and making the games and matches move along quicker. Good move.
This thread reminds me of a story from one of the old time pool players, I think it was Cornbread Red...
Red was playing a one pocket match with all ball fouls in place. He accidentally brushed a ball with his shaft, and his opponent jumped up and hollered, "FOUL! You owe a ball!"
Red then used his cue to sweep every single ball on the table right next to his pocket, and responded, "Fine, now I owe two!"
Edit: I might possibly be thinking of Ronnie Allen, could Jay or anyone else confirm the validity of this story?
Red was playing a one pocket match with all ball fouls in place. He accidentally brushed a ball with his shaft, and his opponent jumped up and hollered, "FOUL! You owe a ball!"
Red then used his cue to sweep every single ball on the table right next to his pocket, and responded, "Fine, now I owe two!"
Edit: I might possibly be thinking of Ronnie Allen, could Jay or anyone else confirm the validity of this story?
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I like the “all ball foul rule” and think that most players are good sports and would simply see it as the best way to play. However, rules are made for those who tend to walk the line.
I believe that currently when no ref is present the player is the final authority. If the player did not see the foul such as when a cuff hit a ball then who has the final say when you can not depend upon your opponent to “play fair?”
This seems to imply that each game in league play or in important games needs an external referee. Unfortunately, I can envision some players telling me I moved a ball when I did not.
I think it is a thorny issue with no clear resolution other than to set a standard that says the usual way to play is all ball fouls. An opponent who takes advantage is simply someone I would not play with again. In league play one person needs to be designated as the ref for this to work.
Currently there are a couple of guys in our non-refereed tournaments who touch the cue ball on the odd occasion and then make like they did not do it. If I bring the foul to their attention they say “I did not” and then refuse to give up their turn. There are no easy solutions except to set it as a standard.
In my opinion it should be the rule for league or tournament play where a designated referee is readily available.
I believe that currently when no ref is present the player is the final authority. If the player did not see the foul such as when a cuff hit a ball then who has the final say when you can not depend upon your opponent to “play fair?”
This seems to imply that each game in league play or in important games needs an external referee. Unfortunately, I can envision some players telling me I moved a ball when I did not.
I think it is a thorny issue with no clear resolution other than to set a standard that says the usual way to play is all ball fouls. An opponent who takes advantage is simply someone I would not play with again. In league play one person needs to be designated as the ref for this to work.
Currently there are a couple of guys in our non-refereed tournaments who touch the cue ball on the odd occasion and then make like they did not do it. If I bring the foul to their attention they say “I did not” and then refuse to give up their turn. There are no easy solutions except to set it as a standard.
In my opinion it should be the rule for league or tournament play where a designated referee is readily available.
And there in lies the problem. There are not enough pool players that know enough about the rules to be able to become a good ref.
I am constantly reminded by players that have been playing in matches and tournaments for 20+ years about how very little they know about the rules.
Ask 10 players a simple question... "When does the game begin?" for any game and it would surprize me if 4 knew the correct answer.
Hooray! Something we agree on! :thumbup:
This rule is long, long overdue. It also helps define the line between Pro and Amateur events.
Sounds good to me and I would extend it to ALL games including 8-Ball Bar Leagues.
We who are "calorically challenged" ( read that FAT) will have to
suck-in our bellies on those long shots, but I like that Rule just the same.
We who are "calorically challenged" ( read that FAT) will have to
suck-in our bellies on those long shots, but I like that Rule just the same.