FS: New 2005 South West Cue!

monski said:
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Me too. I'd negotiate if I like the cue. Martin is cool from what I know and he will entertain any serious offer any buyer may have. ;)
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Monski thanks for the kind words. You were an honorable person to deal with last time.

Price just reduced. Check out others for current secondary market reference like cueaddicts, keith walton, and indy-q. Not too many new South Wests available right now.

Martin
 
Shorty said:
I just want to ask...

Do we think the over-inflated prices of SW is because all of the Japanese and other overseas people snatching them up or is the demand that great in the US as well?

Looking for opinion,
Shorty
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Shorty, the prices for SW cues are a result of "supply and demand". There are only a limited number of SW cues built each year to fill orders for people who've been on a waiting list for years. Players and collectors who follow pool and pool cues know this so getting your hands on a new SW cue is hard to do which keeps the prices higher than what the cues cost directly from SW cues. I know a couple of people who get on the SW waiting list for one reason and that is so they can sell the cues when they finally get them and make a profit. I've owned a number of nice SW cues and I didn't find anything special about the way they played versus some of the other quality cues you can buy today. The one big plus for buying a SW cue is they are like money in the bank if you take care of them.
The cue in this thread listed for sale is a nice looking cue, but it doesn't even have all of the trim rings. I'd never pay that much for it.

SCCues
 
Still available.

jazznpool said:
FS: New 2005 South West cue (#317-05), cocobolo/ birdseye maple. Cue is unchalked and unplayed--including test hits! Weighs 19.3 oz. with either straight shaft (13mm, 3.8 oz. each and exceptionally nice wood). Wrap is white with double brown specs. Super nice new South West with no excuses whatsoever. $2,350.00 plus $35.00 FedEx overnight. Money order or Paypal (debit only to confirmed address add 3%). 100% Ebay feedback(jazznpool). Local and AZB references. USA sales only and no trades.

Martin
jazztiger@lycos.com
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paulybatz said:
How much is this cue direct from Southwest?
I know about the waiting list, etc--I am curious on the mark-up for the cue.
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The price is around $1075. If you notice there are no extra rings on the butt and above the wrap. I think it is way over priced. You can call SW and they will give the exact price.

I was put on the list for a 6 pointed cue and 3 rings, 1 above and 1 below the wrap and 1 at the butt. It will be $1400. If I add a leather wrap it will be $1575. This was Dec of 2004.
 
First off, an asking price is just that, an asking price. If I want to ask for $10,000 for my Predator break cue, I have every right in the world to do that. It won't sell, but it is my prerogative nonetheless.

The difference with South West and Predator is that you can just go down to the local cue shop and buy a brand new Predator, in fact you could buy 5 if you wanted to. With South West, you need to wait what, a year? Well how much is a year worth to you? Probably not the same as it is to me, or to that other guy either. So these cues are a little different in that their "worth" will greatly vary from their "cost" from person to person.

BTW, nice cue. Good luck with the sale.
 
I don't think it is unreasonable to pay for a cue what it would cost when you name finally comes up on a list. I mean, if the wait is six years and you want one today, you are going to pay a premium unless you get lucky. So if the cue today is $1500, it is not unreasonable to believe that the same cue will cost over $2000 in six years from the factory. And if you are dead set on getting one, you are going to spend that amount anyway some time down the line...so why not just do it now instead of waiting for it. At least that is the attitude I have seen and heard from some collectors who are trying to collect cues that are in heavy demand. I have seen plenty of these cues go for over $2000. Frankly if you can pick one up for $2k you might be doing well because it will probably cost you more to get one later considering the price of wood and other materials. It's hard to say. Ultimately, the name of the cue can't be the only consideration as I think it should also appeal to the buyer. If there is a color combo or wood combo that you just really fall in love with, isn't it worth a little more for you to have it?

Deno Andrews
 
agreed-

Deno J. Andrews said:
I don't think it is unreasonable to pay for a cue what it would cost when you name finally comes up on a list. I mean, if the wait is six years and you want one today, you are going to pay a premium unless you get lucky. So if the cue today is $1500, it is not unreasonable to believe that the same cue will cost over $2000 in six years from the factory. And if you are dead set on getting one, you are going to spend that amount anyway some time down the line...so why not just do it now instead of waiting for it. At least that is the attitude I have seen and heard from some collectors who are trying to collect cues that are in heavy demand. I have seen plenty of these cues go for over $2000. Frankly if you can pick one up for $2k you might be doing well because it will probably cost you more to get one later considering the price of wood and other materials. It's hard to say. Ultimately, the name of the cue can't be the only consideration as I think it should also appeal to the buyer. If there is a color combo or wood combo that you just really fall in love with, isn't it worth a little more for you to have it?

Deno Andrews
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This line of reasoning makes a lot of sense as far as I am concerned. This is why I bought the Hercek recently. Sure, I paid probably 5 or 6 hundred dollars more than Joel would have charged me, but I did not want to wait six years, and the cue would probably cost close to the same by that time anyway. A cue like a SW or a Hercek holds its value so well anyway, that if you play with it and decide it is really not what you like or expected, you can keep it for your collection or sell it for what you paid or sometimes even more.
 
nice looking cue and yes he can ask whatever he wants for it.anyone who pays more than $2000 for it is a sucker.one is born everyday though.
 
Exactly. In fact, even though you paid more for it than what the cue maker would have charged you for it, by the time your name comes up on the list you will be able to make a nice profit on the cue if you hold on to it...because these cues are not going to become less rare. The idea of the value of a cue is totally subjective. When it comes to custom makers with long wait lists, there is no such thing as a price standard. What the cue maker charges becomes somewhat useless because it is years before you can get one, and the prices naturally go up. I think the move if you like a certain cue maker like Hercek, or South West Cues, or whatever, is to keep your name on the list...try to buy a cue today by the same maker even at a premium, and when your name comes up, you are going to have a cue that you might want to sell (and make a nice profit) to help pay for the new one. Or, you might keep them both and have some nice long-term investment cues. Either way it is hard to lose with a few certain cue makers.
 
masonh said:
nice looking cue and yes he can ask whatever he wants for it.anyone who pays more than $2000 for it is a sucker.one is born everyday though.
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Though a lot of those suckers have done well over the years collecting the right cue makers. If someone buys that cue for $2200-$2400, it is not going to be very long before they can get that back and even with some profit. Compare that to buying a new $2000 McDermott (if there is one, I don't know). How long will it take to 90% out of the McD, if ever? I think cues are like cars...buy the ones that retain value best and you are not going to get hurt.
 
I used to think that too until I allowed myself to learn the reality of the cue market for new and used South West Cues. After all, I paid about $235.00 for a no points new South West from Jerry in 1983.

South West is now working on orders from 1997. For various reasons there are fewer new, unchalked cues available on the market at this time. Prices were recently increased at South West and this has also affected the secondary market (which is several hundred over the direct South West cost). The people at South West continue to be very dedicated to building a quality product and it shows. Of course, their cues are not going to appeal to everyone.

I'm not worried in the least about selling this cue, it's merely a matter of time. In fact, I wouldn't mind buying several more new South Wests if I could find them at a price attractive to me.

That's the way it goes!

Martin


masonh said:
nice looking cue and yes he can ask whatever he wants for it.anyone who pays more than $2000 for it is a sucker.one is born everyday though.
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jazznpool said:
I used to think that too until I allowed myself to learn the reality of the cue market for new and used South West Cues. After all, I paid about $235.00 for a no points new South West from Jerry in 1983.

South West is now working on orders from 1997. For various reasons there are fewer new, unchalked cues available on the market at this time. Prices were recently increased at South West and this has also affected the secondary market (which is several hundred over the direct South West cost). The people at South West continue to be very dedicated to building a quality product and it shows. Of course, their cues are not going to appeal to everyone.

I'm not worried in the least about selling this cue, it's merely a matter of time. In fact, I wouldn't mind buying several more new South Wests if I could find them at a price attractive to me.

That's the way it goes!

Martin
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I know what you mean. I purchased one of their plain "Satin Cues" a while back and it was pretty badly beaten up. I still paid $1000 for it and didn't care. I sent it to Laurie and asked if it could be cleaned up a bit and another shaft made for it. The reply I got from Laurie was amazing. She called me on the phone and said that what I had sent her was a very rare cue. The fact that the pin had the cactus engraving meant that it was only one of a few satin cues that ever received the engraved pin. She told me it was a great and rare collectible (and gave me a nice letter). Since South West is still in business, I decided to spend the money and have them restore the cue and make a new shaft. They did so and they did a great job of it. Here is a link to the cue:
http://www.3cushion.com/On Line Collection/Cues/southwest.htm

I probably would have a few hundred too much into the cue if I didn't get lucky buying a rare cue by accident, but it wouldn't be long before I could get it back if I ever decide to sell it and it didn't have the cactus pin...and if I have to sell it now, I wouldn't lose money...and in the world of cues, that is doing pretty well. That is because South West and a handful of other cue makers are worth investing in because their works appreciate more rapidly than others, especially their rare stuff.
Deno Andrews
 
Very nice Satin SW Deno. They don't make the satins at SW very often nowadays--only when they are training a new employee, I'm told. You probably know there is a list for these cues as well. I haven't seen a used one for sale anywhere in 4 years.

We discussed the SW satin cue here a while back and the matter got confused with no-point SW cues.

I'm curious Deno, in your opinion did the business aspect of cue making become too difficult for Kersenbrock? Although South West has made refinements, they are essentially building a Kersenbrock design.

Martin



Deno J. Andrews said:
I know what you mean. I purchased one of their plain "Satin Cues" a while back and it was pretty badly beaten up. I still paid $1000 for it and didn't care. I sent it to Laurie and asked if it could be cleaned up a bit and another shaft made for it. The reply I got from Laurie was amazing. She called me on the phone and said that what I had sent her was a very rare cue. The fact that the pin had the cactus engraving meant that it was only one of a few satin cues that ever received the engraved pin. She told me it was a great and rare collectible (and gave me a nice letter). Since South West is still in business, I decided to spend the money and have them restore the cue and make a new shaft. They did so and they did a great job of it. Here is a link to the cue:
http://www.3cushion.com/On Line Collection/Cues/southwest.htm

I probably would have a few hundred too much into the cue if I didn't get lucky buying a rare cue by accident, but it wouldn't be long before I could get it back if I ever decide to sell it and it didn't have the cactus pin...and if I have to sell it now, I wouldn't lose money...and in the world of cues, that is doing pretty well. That is because South West and a handful of other cue makers are worth investing in because their works appreciate more rapidly than others, especially their rare stuff.
Deno Andrews
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jazznpool said:
Very nice Satin SW Deno. They don't make the satins at SW very often nowadays--only when they are training a new employee, I'm told. You probably know there is a list for these cues as well. I haven't seen a used one for sale anywhere in 4 years.

We discussed the SW satin cue here a while back and the matter got confused with no-point SW cues.

I'm curious Deno, in your opinion did the business aspect of cue making become too difficult for Kersenbrock? Although South West has made refinements, they are essentially building a Kersenbrock design.

Martin
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well considering that Kersenbrock isn't making many cues under $10k these days, I would say he is doing all right. Although, his successes can certainly be partly credited to Ed Young who has provided David a pretty consistent work arena.

There is some confusion as to the design origin of the SW cues versus the Kersenbrock cues. SW will have you think that the desing is original, but there are an aweful lot of authentic Kersenbrocks out there with the same design. I think the desing probably evolved and they both used it liberally. Part of the problem is that when SW got started when David was around, many of those cues were sold in the mid west from a certain person who told people they were buying Kersenbrock cues when they were really buying SWs. There were tons of them around Chicago and there still are. I have an interesting situation. I have a cue that was supposedly made by Kersenbrock (supported by Ed Young and David himself) that is quite old. I sent a pic to Laurie at SW and she said that she thought it was made by her late husband. I was in the process of selling it on Ebay when I discovered the problem. So I took it down and decided to keep it for now. I would like to get both of them to give me an authentication letter. I think it would be wild to have cue that is claimed to have been made by two different people. I am pretty sure it is a Kersenbrock because the taper on it is different than any Franklin-era SW, and is very old school. That doesn't mean that Franklin didn't make it...which is why I didn't think it was right to sell it as a Kersenbrock without question. It is on my web site, but I have not updated the story about the cue yet. Take a look at it and let me know what you think:
http://www.3cushion.com/On Line Collection/Cues/kersenbrock.htm

As far as the Satin cue goes, I think I have an outstanding collectible cue which was total luck on my part. I originally bought the cue to use it since it was already beaten up pretty badly...and since I don't play much pool at all annually, I thought it would be cool to have a beat up SW with which to play. Of course, as things go sometimes, I stumbled into a really rare cue. Now it has two shafts and looks brand new thanks to SW.

Deno
 
Thanks for the info. I'm not able to give you an informed opinion on your Kersensbrock/ SW but it is a good example of the clean and tasteful design still used today. I would think there are subtle distinguishing characteristics to differentiate between Kersenbrock and SW cue if one knew what to look for. Interesting that SW's were sold as Kersenbrocks in Chicago area.

Martin


Deno J. Andrews said:
well considering that Kersenbrock isn't making many cues under $10k these days, I would say he is doing all right. Although, his successes can certainly be partly credited to Ed Young who has provided David a pretty consistent work arena.

There is some confusion as to the design origin of the SW cues versus the Kersenbrock cues. SW will have you think that the desing is original, but there are an aweful lot of authentic Kersenbrocks out there with the same design. I think the desing probably evolved and they both used it liberally. Part of the problem is that when SW got started when David was around, many of those cues were sold in the mid west from a certain person who told people they were buying Kersenbrock cues when they were really buying SWs. There were tons of them around Chicago and there still are. I have an interesting situation. I have a cue that was supposedly made by Kersenbrock (supported by Ed Young and David himself) that is quite old. I sent a pic to Laurie at SW and she said that she thought it was made by her late husband. I was in the process of selling it on Ebay when I discovered the problem. So I took it down and decided to keep it for now. I would like to get both of them to give me an authentication letter. I think it would be wild to have cue that is claimed to have been made by two different people. I am pretty sure it is a Kersenbrock because the taper on it is different than any Franklin-era SW, and is very old school. That doesn't mean that Franklin didn't make it...which is why I didn't think it was right to sell it as a Kersenbrock without question. It is on my web site, but I have not updated the story about the cue yet. Take a look at it and let me know what you think:
http://www.3cushion.com/On Line Collection/Cues/kersenbrock.htm

As far as the Satin cue goes, I think I have an outstanding collectible cue which was total luck on my part. I originally bought the cue to use it since it was already beaten up pretty badly...and since I don't play much pool at all annually, I thought it would be cool to have a beat up SW with which to play. Of course, as things go sometimes, I stumbled into a really rare cue. Now it has two shafts and looks brand new thanks to SW.

Deno
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Deno,

An interesting situation happened up at the Super Billiards Expo this year. Jerry Franklin was obviously being inducted into the ACA HOF and Laurie and the SW folks were in attaendance for that. However, they were also going around from booth to booth lloking at cues. There were roughly 4-5 cues at various booths (including ours...Murphey Cues) being displayed and offered as a Kersenbrocks. According to them, there was only one true Kersenbrock in the house (and it happened to be quite an unattractive cue)...they said that the rest were early SWs.

It surprised me how they publicly went about knocking everyone's action on the Kersenbrock cues and somewhat "distancing" the company from DPK. It was also very insteresting to me that when asked, they would not reveal any reasoning for how they knew it was an old SW instead of a Kersenbrock. The response was...."well, we just know".

Surely in the early days Dave was working alongside Jerry in the shop building cues, as well. Now I have heard of a few instances where the same cue was verified by both DPK and Laurie as a Kersenbrock and SW, respectively. How do you explain that one?

I'm curious if anyone knows definitely an ID technique for telling the difference. If the SW folks are so proud to call the Kersenbrocks early SWs, then why would they not reveal any identification hints ???

Sean
 
cueaddicts said:
Deno,

An interesting situation happened up at the Super Billiards Expo this year. Jerry Franklin was obviously being inducted into the ACA HOF and Laurie and the SW folks were in attaendance for that. However, they were also going around from booth to booth lloking at cues. There were roughly 4-5 cues at various booths (including ours...Murphey Cues) being displayed and offered as a Kersenbrocks. According to them, there was only one true Kersenbrock in the house (and it happened to be quite an unattractive cue)...they said that the rest were early SWs.

It surprised me how they publicly went about knocking everyone's action on the Kersenbrock cues and somewhat "distancing" the company from DPK. It was also very insteresting to me that when asked, they would not reveal any reasoning for how they knew it was an old SW instead of a Kersenbrock. The response was...."well, we just know".

Surely in the early days Dave was working alongside Jerry in the shop building cues, as well. Now I have heard of a few instances where the same cue was verified by both DPK and Laurie as a Kersenbrock and SW, respectively. How do you explain that one?

I'm curious if anyone knows definitely an ID technique for telling the difference. If the SW folks are so proud to call the Kersenbrocks early SWs, then why would they not reveal any identification hints ???

Sean
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It is a really interesting sort of thing about the Kers/SW relationship. I think that SW would like to claim that the look of their cues is truly theirs. However, there is no doubt in my mind that Kersenbrock made cues, on his own, of the same design. I think that because so many SWs were sold as Kersenbrock cues, that there is this natural desire to want to set the record straight about it all, and that sometimes goes overboard. That situation of having the same cue verified by both parties is what I am going through right now with mine. In SWs defense, they do have much better records than DPK and if there is ever any question, they will look through their records and dig up the order or info on the buyer and the year the cue was made, if it is theirs of course. The best that David can do is to tell you that he made it. So if SW can come up with provenance, I think that it carries a lot of weight...but if not...than it is probably a Kersenbrock.

There is another potential issue...maybe SW feels that whatever was made in their shop is considered a SW, even if David made it. I seem to remember Laurie saying at one point on the phone with me that she didn't think David made any cues from start to finish while he was there, but instead worked various aspects of the operation.

I think the best thing to do when faced with that situation is to get letters from both parties. Then look at the supporting evidence and make an informed decision.

Deno
 
jazznpool said:
FS: New 2005 South West cue (#317-05), cocobolo/ birdseye maple. Cue is unchalked and unplayed--including test hits! Weighs 19.3 oz. with either straight shaft (13mm, 3.8 oz. each and exceptionally nice wood). Wrap is white with double brown specs. Super nice new South West with no excuses whatsoever. $2,350.00 plus $35.00 FedEx overnight. Money order or Paypal (debit only to confirmed address add 3%). 100% Ebay feedback(jazznpool). Local and AZB references. USA sales only and no trades.

Martin
jazztiger@lycos.com
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still available
 
matthew staton said:
probally $800 this guy sure wants a lot and he will probally get it if he holds out $2400 is cazy just my 2 cents..
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and you can get one brand new for wayyyy less from vince tedesco.
 
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