Full disclosure re ivory

dvs

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello all

With everything going on with Ernie and federal and state laws regarding Ivory it seems to me that fellow AZers should disclose in their posts any Ivory content.

I just read a post in WFS and an AZer asked point blank if the joint was Ivory.
The reply was he sent a PM

Any doubt as to the answer?

I wonder if I'm being overly cautious

Anyway

Caution seems to be the order of the day

Best of luck to Ernie
 
Would make sense

Hello all

With everything going on with Ernie and federal and state laws regarding Ivory it seems to me that fellow AZers should disclose in their posts any Ivory content.

I just read a post in WFS and an AZer asked point blank if the joint was Ivory.
The reply was he sent a PM

Any doubt as to the answer?

I wonder if I'm being overly cautious

Anyway

Caution seems to be the order of the day

Best of luck to Ernie

Seller is most likely out of California and knows its illegal .
 
private communications

Hello all

With everything going on with Ernie and federal and state laws regarding Ivory it seems to me that fellow AZers should disclose in their posts any Ivory content.

I just read a post in WFS and an AZer asked point blank if the joint was Ivory.
The reply was he sent a PM

Any doubt as to the answer?

I wonder if I'm being overly cautious

Anyway

Caution seems to be the order of the day

Best of luck to Ernie


Seems like several states have already followed california. The prez had claimed he was going to outlaw interstate trade in ivory by executive fiat a year or so ago but never actually followed through. That might have gotten the attention of many states.

While it is certainly a seller or trader's choice to make public if there is ivory in a cue I don't see it as a necessity at this point since most interstate trade is 100% legal. However, before making a deal and shipping I would definitely disclose to people on the other end if a cue has ivory. Nobody can keep up with the laws of all fifty states no more than they can keep up with the laws of every country. Best to disclose ivory and the people living where you are shipping to should know the law there.

Shipping ivory out of the country is definitely illegal to almost every country in the world. I'm not certain if it is illegal to ship to the few countries that aren't CITE signees. That comes down to how the law is written. The ivory becomes illegal as soon as it crosses a CITE border, or that is my understanding. However, is it illegal in nonCITE signee countries? I don't know.

Hu
 
Seems like several states have already followed california. The prez had claimed he was going to outlaw interstate trade in ivory by executive fiat a year or so ago but never actually followed through. That might have gotten the attention of many states.

While it is certainly a seller or trader's choice to make public if there is ivory in a cue I don't see it as a necessity at this point since most interstate trade is 100% legal. However, before making a deal and shipping I would definitely disclose to people on the other end if a cue has ivory. Nobody can keep up with the laws of all fifty states no more than they can keep up with the laws of every country. Best to disclose ivory and the people living where you are shipping to should know the law there.

Shipping ivory out of the country is definitely illegal to almost every country in the world. I'm not certain if it is illegal to ship to the few countries that aren't CITE signees. That comes down to how the law is written. The ivory becomes illegal as soon as it crosses a CITE border, or that is my understanding. However, is it illegal in nonCITE signee countries? I don't know.

Hu

IMHO, if a cue has ivory, it should be MANDATORY that is be listed as such.
 
Hello all

With everything going on with Ernie and federal and state laws regarding Ivory it seems to me that fellow AZers should disclose in their posts any Ivory content.

I just read a post in WFS and an AZer asked point blank if the joint was Ivory.
The reply was he sent a PM

Any doubt as to the answer?

I wonder if I'm being overly cautious

Anyway

Caution seems to be the order of the day

Best of luck to Ernie


Questions and responses are supposed to be by PM in the WFS section. Posting them bumps the thread.




.
 
IMHO, if a cue has ivory, it should be MANDATORY that is be listed as such.

LOL!


And for all those cues that people weren't sure about before?

"ferrules might be ivory..."
"joint might be ivory..."
"inlays might be ivory..."
"butt cap might be ivory..."

I wonder how those sellers will list now?

:grin:



.
 
It's going to be a little nerve racing to buy a cue with ivory in it now. Wonder what carries the bigger penalty

Getting ivory mailed to you
Getting weed mailed to you
 
It's going to be a little nerve racing to buy a cue with ivory in it now. Wonder what carries the bigger penalty

Getting ivory mailed to you
Getting weed mailed to you


Or...getting a cue mailed yo you with ivory. Where the weight bolt is a hollow cylinder with weed inside. Hmmm?????
 
With all the BS going on with Ivory, I am gonna sell my three high end Mobleys. Thankfully the Asian market is buoyant just now, as I am not chancing any more shipments to the States.
 
It's going to be a little nerve racing to buy a cue with ivory in it now. Wonder what carries the bigger penalty

Getting ivory mailed to you
Getting weed mailed to you

Shouldnt be nerve racking at all provided the origin of the cue is in the US and you are in the US considering interstate sale isnt outlawed yet.

If the maker isnt on the up and up with his ivory sources then that isnt your fault. Worst case scenario you will lose the cue.

If the maker is on the up and up (which I assume most are) you have no risk at all as long as the cue isnt leaving the country.
 
I copied this from the Fed website

"The sale of African elephant ivory items across state lines (interstate commerce) is prohibited, except for items that qualify as ESA antiques and certain manufactured or handcrafted items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of ivory and meet specific criteria.

Interstate commerce is always prohibited for the following:
•sport-hunted trophies
•items imported under the exception for a household move or inheritance
•items imported as law enforcement or scientific specimens

To qualify for the ESA antiques exemption, an item must meet all of the following criteria [seller/importer/exporter must demonstrate]:
•It is 100 years or older.
•It is composed in whole or in part of an ESA-listed species;
•It has not been repaired or modified with any such species after December 27, 1973; and
•It is being or was imported through an endangered species “antique port.”

Under Director’s Order No. 210, as a matter of enforcement discretion, items imported prior to September 22, 1982, and items created in the United States and never imported must comply with elements A, B, and C above, but not element D.

To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet (i) or (ii) and (iii) - (vii) of the following criteria:

(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;

(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;

(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 % of the value of the item;

(iv) The ivory is not raw;

(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 % of the item by volume;

(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and

(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before July 6, 2016.

For items made of African elephant ivory that qualify as an ESA antique or meet the de minimis criteria, you do not need a permit from the Service to sell ivory across state lines. However, if you are offering African elephant ivory for sale, you should be prepared to provide appropriate documentation to the Service, if asked. We would also suggest that you pass along all documentation to the buyer of your elephant ivory items. For detailed information on documentation requirements, please refer to Director’s Order 210.

Some states have laws prohibiting or restricting sale of ivory. Check to make sure that you are also in compliance with local and state laws. Contact the state to check on their requirements. "


My read:

The general law is that it is prohibited to sell ivory from one state to another.

Exception is if it de-minimis. Looks to me like the burden is on the citizen to prove the several parts of the exception.

All I am saying is that you can't just assume that if you are buying or selling a cue across state lines that even if all it has is an ivory ferrule, that you will definitely have no problem.

Some states, California and New York and others make it illegal to sell ivory within the state.

I only have a couple cues with ivory and I have no intention of selling them, but this does open up liability issue, criminal and possible civil.

Anyway; I've about had it with this issue.

Best regards to all
 
Last edited:
Here's the rub.....people selling cues don't always know the domicile of the buyer.
The seller may not wish to reveal their state of domicile either, ex., California.

Advertising and describing your cue in a public forum when there's so much clamor
about ivory being banned, it makes sense to be silent and let the photos do the talking.
Answering questions via PM makes sense if you want to be careful and cautious.
For all anyone knows, they could be conversing with a CI for the governing agency.

Kinda sucks but kinda makes sense too........how many of the readers are up to date
on the discussions, if any are, taking place with your state legislature......it's not the
Feds that you have to be concerned about. It your own state legislature and don't
think for a minute it couldn't happen where you live....that's what all of us used to think.



Matt B.
 
Full disclosure would be best and both sellers and buyers should be aware of their state laws.

To be honest I think sellers are gambling and will still sell to California.
 
For the OP, that is no problem - I certify that this post is 100% ivory-free.

For the rest of you just replace the word "ivory" in all your for-sale posts with the phrase "polished organic by-product brutally ripped from the jaws of an magnificent, intelligent animal that was gruesomely murdered by violent criminals and smuggled into your country by international gangsters", then add this link (Warning: graphic images) to your listing. After doing that I'm pretty you won't need to worry about anyone wanting to buy the stuff no matter what state they live in, so, problem solved.
 
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